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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

I have a starting problem with the s&s pan 93" from 2005. Kick, Super E, currently Morris G5 ignition. I am now running out of reasons why the bike won't start and would greatly appreciate help with potential reasons.

Background: engine has about 800km from 2005. This winter is has been fixed up and I swapped the Dyna S ignition for a Morris G5. This has been set up accd to instructions. I have managed to start the bike after 40+ kicks with non traditional methods. Now it shows signs of firing up when kicking and "correct" priming of carb, but does not start, rather it spits fire out of the carb. It does not start on the threadmill ie running at 30km/h in 4th gear, instead spits and fire from carb.

We have changed to fresh gas, checked the carb, re-checked the timing and the mag, done a compression test (cold engine 65psi vs 89psi normal but how much is this info worth when the engine is cold?), checked the cam, checked the valves. All of the prior seem ok. We will next check with a Dyna S again. Next take the engine apart.

What could we be missing? The engine has hydraulic pushrods, could those be worn out?

Any ideas would be much appreciated. Summer is moving fast here in Sweden...:-(
 

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Forgive me if I sound loopy here.

What is a cold compression test? If the bike won't run, aren't all tests 'cold'?

I have no idea what the spec is on an S&S, but 65psi sounds unbelievably low to me. Any way a pushrod is misadjusted, holding a valve open?
 

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Hmmmmm...crap compression and fire out the carb. Sounds like someone's intake valves aren't closing fully?

Did the bike run with the Dyna ignition (in which case I won't ask why you ditched it for the mag...)

"I have managed to start the bike after 40+ kicks with non traditional methods"

I gotta know what this means.
 

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HogDog said:
I swapped the Dyna S ignition for a Morris G5.
While I realized it's an unpopular opinion here, I believe you've identified your problem.

I changed out my Dyna S for a Morris snap mag two years and it's been finicky as hell since.

My guess? A built motor with higher comp, bigger displacement, high lift cams and a kickstart only probably requires an ignition that retards for starting and has appropriate advance characteristics.

My bike was a well-dialed and a one kick machine for years.

And yes, I know how to tune a motorcycle.

Just one opinion for the pile.

Flame on.

Jason
 

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I agree fully with Jason's assessment.

Give us a status report if a no-start condition AFTER you've re-installed the Dyna S

FWIW, it would seem to me that with a 93"mill , maybe some assembly of compression release should be necessary, and particularly with a kick start/mag combo???
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks!

Govmule: possibly, but it has hydraulic pushrods, I thought they primarly wore out...agree on the 65psi, to me it signals serious down leakage as the valves were closing well. But what is it the figure worth when done ice cold.

Dr. Benway. Yes it ran. Until it stopped, then I heard that Dyna S condensers has a tendency to fail on kickstart bikes when they get battery overload. The prior owner had 4 empty cases of Dyna S and I figured that what I had heard on the G5 may be the solution, especially with a torn cross ligament and thus the like of a snap mag to save my spare knee. Non-traditional: after 40 kicks, full gas twist and kick, i.e. a sense of flooding the engine (in light of the Super E which has a tendency to overload with fuel)

Jason: i hope you (and I) are wrong in that the spark is to short for a larger engine...we'll know better on Saturday when we test this
 

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I am under the impression that hot comp tests can improve... but 65psi at any temperature with valves closing fully sounds insanely low.
 

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HogDog said:
Jason: i hope you (and I) are wrong in that the spark is to short for a larger engine...we'll know better on Saturday when we test this
Don't know about your claim, but mine is based on WHEN the spark occurs, not for HOW LONG it lasts ;-0

You are the first person I've ever met claiming reliability issues with Dyna S.

I've run them for countless thousands of miles over many years with no issues. Keep the weights in good shape. Don't have sketchy wiring. Ride. Repeat.

Jason
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Jason: my understaning of the mag spark is that it may be strong but "duration" is shorter than eg Dyna S, that may make for a tricker ignition by itself. That is what I have heard. Dyna S I have heard that be careful which battery you use. Lights off when kickstarting may send too high a power to the condenser and kill it. Again hearsay, together with empty Dyna S boxes....Why don't you ditch your snap mag and go back to Dyna S?
 

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dumb response time - is the morris installed correctly? as in correct tooth alignment when you dropped it in. i'm no mag guy, but sounds like it may be super advanced or retarded.

also, did you change anything on the carburetor?

just sayin'
 

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HD:

Spark duration theories are probably a little esoteric for the application we're talking about here. Can we just agree that it is not the issue?

Where ever you're getting your Dyna S ignition info is dead wrong. Don't take any horse racing or investment advice from them. Don't know if you mean to use the word capacitor (language barrier?), but the Dyna S uses a Hall-effect pickup coupled directly to the coil. No brain box. No external capacitors/condensors. I've found them to be extremely tolerant of imperfect voltage and think this is a common experience.

I've only damaged a Dyna S via a charging system problem once and that was because my reg/rect was putting out some AC signal on the system and it gave weird misses. The only reason I know this is because the used car dealer where I pushed the bike to was an electronics guru (and bored . . . middle of Pennsyltucky) hooked up an oscilloscope to it on a suspicion and proved his case.

If your charging system is putting out voltage high enough to kill electronic ignitions, you've got other problems you should address first.

As for why I don't I change back. . . I am. Just haven't had the time to get down to the shop to do it. So I've been riding my other bikes for the time being. Fatherhood takes a lot of time!

Jason
 

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Few things come to mind.
1. You mentioned the normal(for this bike I am assuming) compression is around 90psi. This is low anyway, more than likely due to the cam profile.
2. At 65psi, you may have a dry/washed cylinder if you have been kicking and squirting fuel.
3. You said it was running until it stopped.........and it had a Dyna S in it then. Why did it stop?


If it was me, points setup to diagnose "stopped" issue. Once it running again and has had a chance to improve ring seal. Then if I was bent on the Mag. I would know that the variables are less.

You may have to squirt some oil in the cylinders to "unwash" them...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks guys,

Some comments on the above:

The engine has been re-done and the cam has been changed to, I believe, a 600 with a special manual grind, this in order to make the bike kickstart friendly for the prior owner. Should this bring the compression lower? Possibly. As low as 90 or 65psi? No, then either the test has been done wrong or something is wrong. A leakdown test was done (me not present) and the top end was sealing well.

Jason: But if the spark of the G5 is about of the same "value" as Dyna S's, the difference primarily lies in an insufficient retard for the G5?

On the G5 installment issue, I am fairly sure that it is good, at lest done acc'd to instructions. I.e.manual twist of mag counter-clockwise until it snaps, line up the points to where just before release, fit onto tooths, cross check point-alignment with timing tool, lock down. All done with flywheel at 35 degree before TDC-mark at the center/moving towards front of timing hole. My thinking of what may be wrong: at the manual twist the mag snaps just before I align it. Is this right?

Jaws: I decided to change last fall. At that time the bike had turned a bitch to kickstart, it refused to start. With two small kids, no time to check, I decided to get the G5 and give that a shot. Yes, I should have measured up whether the Dyna S was failed or whether there was something else. Live and learn!
 

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I gotta tell ya, I was in your shoes. I have a 93" genny shovel. I ran the QuickStart 2000 on it for a long while. I thought it would be cool to run a mag. Well they look cool but I could never quite get it dialed in. It wasn't as bad as your case. It was bad enough that last weekend I put the old timer back in. Now it's an honest to god 1 kicker if I follow the correct start routine.
 
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