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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello JJ

I'm wrapping up a shovel chopper and have just finished getting my juice drum sorted. I got the brake filled and bled and I'm noticing the pedal feel is rock hard and brakes are nearly non existent.

Note that I have not ridden the bike, just rolled it down the drive way to check.

I'm using an OE Lockheed Wagner MC (FE-24119) that I've rebuilt with new internals.

Drum is OE 67-72 with OE Bendix backing plate.

Shoes aren't new but they had a lot of life left so I didn't replace them.

Wheel cylinder is a new Raybestos WC9004 that was a recommended replacement for OEM #41740-63 mentioned here on JJ :


Brake lines are all new Russel braided stainless.

Since all the components are new I'm using DOT 5. I've adjusted the brake shoe cams so the drum is adjusted properly. I also sanded both the inside of the drum and the brake shoes to clean up the surfaces.

Problem is the pedal feel is rock hard and the bike barely stops.

Is this simply an issue that will resolve itself after I ride the bike and bed the shoes in a bit? Is the wheel cylinder my problem? Are juice drums just really hamfisted brakes? I've ridden mechanicals that are night and day better than this....
 

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Juice stuff is primo. Less pedal effort than mechanical in my opinion.

Try breaking the line loose at the master as you push on the pedal. Sort of a bench bleed. If the pedal drop like it should with ease, then the problem is down the line. Next stop is the fitting at the T for the switch. Do the same as the master and dont let the pedal return with the fittings loose. On down the line, filling the master and cracking fittings. Retighten each as you go, before cracking the next. Dont bottom the pedal before tightening the fittings.
 

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some of the aftermarket steel braided lines will do that - if you had the original rubber line on when you press it it flexes, so you dont get a rock hard pedal - some like it some dont
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Here's a few pics of the setup. Jaws I'll try your suggestion and bleed at the fittings starting at the MC.

This is the rebuild kit I used for the MC:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/REAR-BRAKE-...EAD-/262040666062?hash=item3d02d73fce&vxp=mtr

Setup I'm using a 150* hard U off the MC, to a 9" SS line to a brake switch junction, then a 30" SS line to a 35* elbow at the backing plate. The control is a modified FX mid.







 

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You have bent your brake pedal, effectively decreasing the ratio and the leverage you should have. The ratio should be between 7 to 1 or 6 to 1, meaning the pedal should be 6 times as far away perpendicular to the pivot as the arm going to the master cylinder rod. Your pedal should be about even with the front side of your mag.
 

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wagner lockheed master cylinders have a valve in them that is removed depending if you are using a Disc or a hydro drum......someone here will know the part and reason... worth a look anyway...
I was just about to add this. There's a little doo dad...a cup or something that should be included in the rebuild kit.

My brain is shot this morning...can't think of the part, but I put one in the hydro drum on my shovel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
The residual valve is in there, was included with the rebuild kit. The brakes hold pressure, I don't have to pump them, so we're all good there.

Joe49 - this was mockup, the frame has been finish welded and powder coated, including the MC mount - currently in the middle of final assembly. The length of the pedal is probably contributing to the issue - I'll see if any extra leverage makes a difference. I made a new pedal to clear the mag, but it's not a huge deviation from the original. Do you still thinks this is a major factor? This scenario I'm experiencing reminds me of a mismatched MC/wheel cylinder combo.

Factory:



Modified:



 

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How much travel til hard? Does the mc pump up if you press a few times consecutively?

Can you hear or feel the shoes move with the pedal? Properly working the pedal should have some free play and then travel enough to position the shoes against the drum, then the pedal should be firm and not drop or be spongy. Just like a car with manual brakes. I can lock my drums up in a hot second. They should feel like your mechanicsl brakes only easier to apply stopping pressue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
How much travel til hard? Does the mc pump up if you press a few times consecutively?

Can you hear or feel the shoes move with the pedal? Properly working the pedal should have some free play and then travel enough to position the shoes against the drum, then the pedal should be firm and not drop or be spongy. Just like a car with manual brakes. I can lock my drums up in a hot second. They should feel like your mechanicsl brakes only easier to apply stopping pressue.
The pedal is hard immediately, right off the stop. I can't hear them move but you can hear the shoes groan a bit when I smash the pedal and rock the bike back and forth. I adjusted the cams in the backing plate per the manual and the wheel spins freely, I just eliminated a bunch of pedal drop before the shoes made contact. Maybe that is an indicator that the shoes aren't grabbing the drum with 100% efficiency, if the pedal drops easily until the shoes hit the drum lining? The brake shoes had a nice uniform arc with the drum before I reassembled though.
 

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As soon as I saw the photos I thought the same as Joe49, pedal ratio. I've been through this in the past (not with H-D juice drums, though), and you can see by how much you've rotated the foot rest back, how much of the pedal length you've lost.
 

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The residual valve is in there, was included with the rebuild kit. The brakes hold pressure, I don't have to pump them, so we're all good there.

Joe49 - this was mockup, the frame has been finish welded and powder coated, including the MC mount - currently in the middle of final assembly. The length of the pedal is probably totallycontributing to the issue - I'll see if any extra leverage makes a difference. I made a new pedal to clear the mag,and in so doing reduced the ratio but it's not a huge deviation from the original.yes it is like by 1/3 less leverage Do you still thinks this is a major factor? yes it is the only factorThis scenario I'm experiencing reminds me of a mismatched MC/wheel cylinder combo.Which is the same thing losing mechanical advantage

Factory:In this picture you can see how far away from the pivot the pedal pad is suppose to be

Modified: In this picture you can see how the pedal pad is to close to the pivot

There's the water you can drink it or go eat grass till you get thirsty.:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Joe, here's a popular swinger made by hide motorcycle in japan. You can see he has a super short mid control lever like mine. In videos they've posted he's skidding and powersliding all day long on this machine...

He's using the same MC/juice drum combo as I am and his lever pivot seems to be even shorter than my own.....where is his mechanical advantage coming from to get such good braking? I did notice the brake rod he's using is a long modified piece that's curved to compensate for the mid height, but that shouldn't be a factor should it?


 

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Nothing to do with your brake. Is that a Haifley Bros. Hardtail? I like the original looking bends in the lower rail going up to the axle plates.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Nothing to do with your brake. Is that a Haifley Bros. Hardtail? I like the original looking bends in the lower rail going up to the axle plates.
Yes it is! Nearly finished with this build, their tail is very nice. They are now offering the rear trans mount with the tin work and rear fender mount as an option to keep it even more OE looking.

Here's the bike I'm working on:

 
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