[PONY]

Iv'e had a 56 Pan/Shovel for 18 years. Iv'e gone thru the engine three times but this last time is driving me crazy. I rebuilt the lower end (new pin, bearings, wrist pin bushings, timken bearings and pinion bearings) Trued it with dial indicators to .0005-.001 runnout and set rod end play to specs. Ground the seats and installed ss intakes & nitrated exhaust valves, the guides were tight and I replaced the oil seals. Checked the rockers and shafts (they looked great) and shimmed the end play. The cylinders looked good so I honed them and used cast rings. I installed a Sifton 512 cam that I got of eBay and set the end play to specs. Rebuilt the lifter rollers and used hydralic lifter units. Found nothing out of the unusual durring the tear down and rebuild. It had a lot of miles on it and I wanted to ride to Sturgis again this year, I try to go every 2-3 years and have gone 5 times without any major problems. It's had what seems like Bad rocker rattle ever since. Go up hill with a load on it and all is quiet like it should be. Go down hill or on the flat and it rattles like crazy. Real Scarry. I don't like going around the block let alone to Sturgis. So Far Iv'e: Checked rocker arm condition and end play (good) Checked the lifters and cam lobes (good) Pulled to whole top end. Bored the cylinders installed new pistons and cast rings. Installed A Ram Jet rocker arm play kit. Pulled the hyd units and installed a Sifton solid lifter kit. Checked the timing and replaced the old manual dist with an auto advance unit. It rattles the same hot or cold and nothing Iv'e done has changed it one bit. Could the cam do this??? I never had this problem before the rebuild but I can't see why it would. I checked the cam with a dial indicator when I got it and it did have a little more lift and duration that my old FLH cam, But nothing that radical. Iv'e been building my own engines and worked in the shops doing the same for 35 years but this has me stumped!! Sturgis is getting Close!

 

[Panhead Jim]

Have you checked the oil pressure? Put a gauge on 'er.

 

[Chopper Chaz]

sounds like the wrong cam gear...did you press the cam gear on or was it already on?? clicks like a bastard??? check the cam gear..

 

[Panman51]

Have you checked the oil pressure? Put a gauge on 'er.

Yeah, what he said. You didn't say anything about the oil pump in your list of things you did. I'd check it out.

 

[PONY]

Plenty of oil to the top end. Loosened the crossover line before start up and kicked it over untill oil came out. Oil also comes out when this is done when running.

 

[Jurneyman]

I really hate to bring this up, but it sounds like there is the possibility of a wrist pin clip comming out,the noise could be increasing when the load is lower or off
the piston,when you are going downhill or crusin.The most comon reason for this
is when the c clip is put in backwards with the rounded side out.The flat side
must face out,the next most comon find is using the c clip in a groove
designed for a different or thicker clip,in this case two c clips may be used for convience,or laziness,whichever one applies,but even then the outside clip
of the two installed must have the flat side facing out,but the inside clip
should have the flatside facing the wristpin.This installation procedure is not
an option,I have found in almost every case the problem was not the c clip
but the way it was installed.

 

[Tony Bones]

Maybe ride up and talk w/ Bob Gauge at Custom Machine Pony. He might have something to offer.

 

[PONY]

Thanks Tony. Where's he located? I can't find him in either the white or yellow pages.. I'm on Lake City Way by the BMW Bike dealer.

 

[Panhead Jim]

Man, I saw a treatise on Harley engine noises recently, had it all broken down into when the noise occurs and what kind of noise. I've been looking through all my stuff for an hour now, and can't find it. But I will...
Did you ever figure out your problem??? I went through it in my mind, piston slap, wrist pins, lifters, I gotta believe it's cam related, and here's why: Even though you replaced a world of shit during and after (gulp) the rebuild, the only thing you really CHANGED was the cam...Has to be cam related.
So what is it?

 

[PONY]

Had the cylinders bored and used cast pistons and rings. The wrist pin holes used spiral rings. I like them a lot better than c-clips. I had the noise before and after this latest attempt and finding the noise. It sounded just like rocker rattle and happens under the same conditions. (all good under a load. Bad at cruise and decelaration). Rockers were shimmed origonaly and when I did the cylinders, I installed a Ram Jet rocker kit. It Didn't change anything. If the cam had too much lift and the rockers were hitting somewhere it would happen all the time. Iv'e got a buddy with a lot of earlier stuff and I'm going to grab an old stock cam and see what happens. Iv'e been riding it some and it just may show me where it's not happy at, but I hope I find it first!

 

[Panhead Jim]

Had the cylinders bored and used cast pistons and rings. The wrist pin holes used spiral rings. I like them a lot better than c-clips. I had the noise before and after this latest attempt and finding the noise. It sounded just like rocker rattle and happens under the same conditions. (all good under a load. Bad at cruise and decelaration). Rockers were shimmed origonaly and when I did the cylinders, I installed a Ram Jet rocker kit. It Didn't change anything. If the cam had too much lift and the rockers were hitting somewhere it would happen all the time. Iv'e got a buddy with a lot of earlier stuff and I'm going to grab an old stock cam and see what happens. Iv'e been riding it some and it just may show me where it's not happy at, but I hope I find it first!

From my machine shop days, I'm thinkin GEAR LASH. You only get it when the machine is not under load. It goes back to the guy earlier that asked after cam gear. You did not have this noise before installing this cam, right?

 

[Panhead Jim]

This may be on up the cam chest, too. Could be all the way to the gen, gen driver, idler, dist driver, and still sound like valves or rockers just because that's where you hear it. I wish I could listen, but I'm thinking gear lash.

 

[PONY]

I retired, sold off all my stuff last Nov. bought a motorhome and trailer for the bikes and hit the road for parts unknown, so I don't have all my old parts anymore. I sure wish I still had my old stock H cam. Oh well I'll go dig in my buddies junk for one. Thats got to fix it as Iv'e already done most everything else. If it doesn't fix it, Dynamite comes to mind!

 

[Jurneyman]

good choice on the wrist pin clips,they are the way to go.I still am looking for
what might cause the noise when the motor is unloaded,did you check the
ideler gear bushing,shaft,and bolt,for tightness?Also the same for the dist gear,make sure it is tight on the shaft,with a good pin.Another thing to check is the generater drive gear,make sure it is tight,a friend forgot to correctly
tighten the nut and it came off trashing everything in the cam case.One more
thing you can check is the clearance between the cam lobe,and the dist.drive
gear when the motor is unloaded the gear can move back and forth to just
enough to hit.One more quick idea,did you block off the oil to the lifters,and
use pressed in lifter adapters.There really should be no problem with the 412 cam.I believe sifton used panhead lift spects,at the valve,so the shovel with
the lower rocker ratio would be less,this is why I used to recomend a little
more cam when changing from a pan to shovel,because what you made up in flow from the shovel you lost in lift and valve opening speed.

 

[PONY]

Had a flash back to the mid 70's when I worked in the shops. Harley had an issue with mismatched cam/pinion gears that made the things sound like a washing machine. The gears were color coded (yellow dot, blue dot, ect) Our shop did 6-8 of them. Although the early modlels never had this issue, the best I can remember, this shit all started when I installed this cam. So much for E-bay finds!! A friend with a local shop will sell me a new Crane Fire Ball 293 Hyd cam for $50 so I'll try that. Thanks for everyone getting involved. If it hadn't been for several post on gear lash and mismatched gears, I probably wouldn't have remembered about that. I'll pick up the cam thurs and put it in fri. I'll let you guys know how it works out. Thanks Again!