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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
front of the left case, it looks like 147

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appears to be a type 4 cowpie 4 speed it reads L7521

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are these casting marks normal on the inner primary?

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thanks again to all, your knowledge has helped me out a bunch
 

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the 'H' on the rear mount is a Harley mark but the number at the front is bogus, it even looks like a factory VIN has been removed to me which indicates a dodgy history, the one other number that if there will totally ID it as a Harley & if also removed will indicate foul play is inside on the rear wall of the cam case as seen here in the picture below, it is a code that will ID the displacement when new, the year, month, day & its daily production number, & if there or removed would both indicate an altered VIN, I'd run away or go bitch slap whoever ya got it from View attachment 272536
272537
 

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Thanks for the extra photos. Re the Hs, is one wider than the other or is it just the picture? The latest I’ve seen them on H-D Shovel cases are 1976 models. On alternator Shovels they were used for the FLH and FX etc as opposed to the FL which had 7s there.

Looks like some characters under the left case may have fallen victim to polishing? Notice the 1 has a top serif at about forty-five degrees and no serif at the base. Notice the 4 is sans serif and has an open back. The combination of these two characters makes me think the left case may be early-70s. Shovel CPNs for that period had two sections. First character (1) was a code number which your case appears to have. It indicated 74ci OHV. Next two characters indicated model year but they may be missing due to polishing? Then there was a hyphen or dash which may still be present? Second section contained four or five characters indicating sequential production and your second section may be 4++7. In your photo below do I see a hyphen/dash?






Look underneath your R-H case for that style of CPN.

If the cases turn out to be H-D then the number on top of the R-H case may have been state-assigned. Did you receive any paperwork for the engine?

Hard to be sure from your pictures but on your left case is there a number boss like my example below? A boss wasn’t required after 1969 models but it remained as part of the casting anyway for a while.





Trans isn’t a cowpie. Instead it has a ratchet lid and the lid is 59 or later because it has a switch. Yours looks like neutral indicator switch #33900-59. The lid may even be 65 or later due to the countersunk socket-heads. Is there a vent screw anywhere in the lid? As of 56 models vent screw #34720-56 was installed as per this example.





On the front of the trans is an additional original component identifying number, aka security code, aka anti-theft number. On a trans case, L indicates about a 73 or 74 model. Under the trans you should find casting number 34703 65 which was used for 65 thru about early-77.

Re the inner primary, some Harley inners can be fairly rough in places but that one looks a bit worse than usual. I can’t tell if it’s H-D or AM.
Eric
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Thanks for the extra photos. Re the Hs, is one wider than the other or is it just the picture? The latest I’ve seen them on H-D Shovel cases are 1976 models. On alternator Shovels they were used for the FLH and FX etc as opposed to the FL which had 7s there.

Looks like some characters under the left case may have fallen victim to polishing? Notice the 1 has a top serif at about forty-five degrees and no serif at the base. Notice the 4 is sans serif and has an open back. The combination of these two characters makes me think the left case may be early-70s. Shovel CPNs for that period had two sections. First character (1) was a code number which your case appears to have. It indicated 74ci OHV. Next two characters indicated model year but they may be missing due to polishing? Then there was a hyphen or dash which may still be present? Second section contained four or five characters indicating sequential production and your second section may be 4++7. In your photo below do I see a hyphen/dash?






Look underneath your R-H case for that style of CPN.

If the cases turn out to be H-D then the number on top of the R-H case may have been state-assigned. Did you receive any paperwork for the engine?

Hard to be sure from your pictures but on your left case is there a number boss like my example below? A boss wasn’t required after 1969 models but it remained as part of the casting anyway for a while.





Trans isn’t a cowpie. Instead it has a ratchet lid and the lid is 59 or later because it has a switch. Yours looks like neutral indicator switch #33900-59. The lid may even be 65 or later due to the countersunk socket-heads. Is there a vent screw anywhere in the lid? As of 56 models vent screw #34720-56 was installed as per this example.





On the front of the trans is an additional original component identifying number, aka security code, aka anti-theft number. On a trans case, L indicates about a 73 or 74 model. Under the trans you should find casting number 34703 65 which was used for 65 thru about early-77.

Re the inner primary, some Harley inners can be fairly rough in places but that one looks a bit worse than usual. I can’t tell if it’s H-D or AM.
Eric
thanks again SBT, what your saying makes total sense to me specially after you pointed out the "dash that succumbed to polishing" again thank you so much for the constructive comments regarding this motor and tranny
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as soon as I can I'll tell y'all the full story, I'm trying to build up enough information regarding this bike so I can have a good outcome, thx again
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Thanks for the extra photos. Re the Hs, is one wider than the other or is it just the picture? The latest I’ve seen them on H-D Shovel cases are 1976 models. On alternator Shovels they were used for the FLH and FX etc as opposed to the FL which had 7s there.

Looks like some characters under the left case may have fallen victim to polishing? Notice the 1 has a top serif at about forty-five degrees and no serif at the base. Notice the 4 is sans serif and has an open back. The combination of these two characters makes me think the left case may be early-70s. Shovel CPNs for that period had two sections. First character (1) was a code number which your case appears to have. It indicated 74ci OHV. Next two characters indicated model year but they may be missing due to polishing? Then there was a hyphen or dash which may still be present? Second section contained four or five characters indicating sequential production and your second section may be 4++7. In your photo below do I see a hyphen/dash?






Look underneath your R-H case for that style of CPN.

If the cases turn out to be H-D then the number on top of the R-H case may have been state-assigned. Did you receive any paperwork for the engine?

Hard to be sure from your pictures but on your left case is there a number boss like my example below? A boss wasn’t required after 1969 models but it remained as part of the casting anyway for a while.





Trans isn’t a cowpie. Instead it has a ratchet lid and the lid is 59 or later because it has a switch. Yours looks like neutral indicator switch #33900-59. The lid may even be 65 or later due to the countersunk socket-heads. Is there a vent screw anywhere in the lid? As of 56 models vent screw #34720-56 was installed as per this example.





On the front of the trans is an additional original component identifying number, aka security code, aka anti-theft number. On a trans case, L indicates about a 73 or 74 model. Under the trans you should find casting number 34703 65 which was used for 65 thru about early-77.

Re the inner primary, some Harley inners can be fairly rough in places but that one looks a bit worse than usual. I can’t tell if it’s H-D or AM.
Eric
also from your picture it looks like the vent screw is in the wrong hole!!!!
 

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take the cam cover off & see 100% if it has numbers stamped inside as in my picture,
if it does then it's Harley, but doesn't have factory VIN numbers, they have been removed,
& the same goes if the inner number has been removed, as only Harley stamped them there,
therefor if it is removed, then its a Harley with the VIN number removed & the inner number removed.
both ways you have a problem,
if there are no internal numbers, & NO sign that any have been removed, then it fair to say it is NOT a Harley & the numbers are legit,
I take it you don't have a title as the numbers on it should match,
belly number do not get polished away,.. they get removed to hide a motors identity,
& to me it looks like a factory VIN has been badly removed from the position the Factory stamped their numbers.
a quick removal of the cam cover will answer ALL your questions about it as the internal numbers by Harley show capacity, year made, date made & what production number for the day it was, EVERYTHING you need is just ten or so 1/4 screws away
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
take the cam cover off & see 100% if it has numbers stamped inside as in my picture,
if it does then it's Harley, but doesn't have factory VIN numbers, they have been removed,
& the same goes if the inner number has been removed, as only Harley stamped them there,
therefor if it is removed, then its a Harley with the VIN number removed & the inner number removed.
both ways you have a problem,
if there are no internal numbers, & NO sign that any have been removed, then it fair to say it is NOT a Harley & the numbers are legit,
I take it you don't have a title as the numbers on it should match,
belly number do not get polished away,.. they get removed to hide a motors identity,
& to me it looks like a factory VIN has been badly removed from the position the Factory stamped their numbers.
a quick removal of the cam cover will answer ALL your questions about it as the internal numbers by Harley show capacity, year made, date made & what production number for the day it was, EVERYTHING you need is just ten or so 1/4 screws away
" EVERYTHING you need is just ten or so 1/4 screws away" and the puller cause I'm not using any flat heads to separate the cone from the case, if everything works out proper I'll make the puller for the ignition cover so I can pull it apart.
 

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if that is a 1980, i wonder what part?
the frame vin number on the neck (and engine case) "should" have stars at both ends of the number.
1980 will end with JO then the star.
a 75 would be H5, a 77 would be H7 a 79 is H9
so... all 70's will be H and then 1980 only will be J
last number is year in that decade.
HO is 70, JO is 80...
1981 was the start of the 17 digit vin all starting with 1HD1.....

from the pix, i notice things that are not 1980

trans case with an anti theft code stamp of L7521... the L was part of that code used in 73 and 74.
you will find K or L in 1973. you will find L, M or N in 1974

the inner primary chain case is aftermarket, a Cal Products brand without any doubt... i have one like it on mine.

the -66 in the casting numbers on the cylinders are on all 66-77 74 inch shovels. yes, those are the 10 fin type.
there are -78 cylinders, the 9 fin type used starting mid-late year 1977 and later used on all shovels, both 74 and also 80 inch.
so a -78 at the end of the casting number does not make it automatically an 80 inch.

looking at the tappet blocks and not removing any mounting screws, i would -->guess<-- you will find those are 76 or older blocks made for counter sunk type screws that have the later 1/4"X20 thread 77 or later screws.
only way to know for sure is pull one screw out and look at the block and screw.
if you pull a screw (use a 12 point 1/4" socket) and see a taper at the top of the block and not on the screw... well...

from the pix i would say the heads are without a doubt 1975 or older.
casting dates on those are below the rocker boxes very near the pushrods on the top side of the top fin...they are mostly hid by the exhaust push rod tubes.
one pic shows intake clamps that are clearly the "O" ring type, 79 or older.
note no bands under the clamps.
80-84 are band type.
are the spark plugs short reach (roughly 1/2") or long reach with 3/4" of thread depth?
the long reach plugs started in 75.

there are a lot of mixed up parts from many years from what i see.
sad to say it but that's almost normal now for many big twins that are 41 years old.
 

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Quote: ‘thanks again SBT, what your saying makes total sense to me specially after you pointed out the "dash that succumbed to polishing" again thank you so much for the constructive comments regarding this motor and tranny. as soon as I can I'll tell y'all the full story, I'm trying to build up enough information regarding this bike so I can have a good outcome, thx again. also from your picture it looks like the vent screw is in the wrong hole!!!!’


You’re welcome. As I mentioned above a number boss wasn’t required on the left case after 1969 models but it remained as part of the casting for a while and I think it may have been present thru 1970. But yours hasn’t got it so I’d rule out 1970 for your left case. I have examples of it on some cases for 71 and early-72 although I’m not certain when it was omitted and there may be some overlap.

If, as I suspect, the 1 under your left case is the code number it is the type used in that position on alternator Shovel cases for 70–71 and 72 as shown below. Also notice this 4 is like yours, being sans serif and having an open back.





For 73 a different 1 was used as the code number. Its top serif remained at about forty-five degrees but it had a serif across the base. The sequence 4 remained the same as before.





The same code 1 and sequence 4 were again used for 74. But for 75 a new format appeared and code number 1 changed again, with its top serif becoming horizontal and its base serif increasing in width as shown below. Also notice a different 4.





Anyway the characters remaining under your left case, combined with the absence of a number boss, may suggest your left case is about a 71 or 72 model.

In the above photo J6++ is the type of extra ID introduced for 75 models. Sometimes it’s also under the front of the R-H case but for most years it’s at the back of both cases as per this example of U4++.





Did you find anything under your R-H case yet? If it is H-D then originally it would have had a CPN underneath if it’s 74 or earlier. The CPN wasn’t inside the gear compartment until 75 models. If you want to check inside your case you could remove the front pushrods and tappet guide.





I agree the top of your R-H case doesn’t look good and if a VIN was removed then that may be why it received the other number. If it was state-assigned then it may be on record somewhere so you could check the DMV about it? But as for polishing under the left case, if it was done for reasons untoward then I would have expected the 1, 4 and 7 to be removed. But that didn’t happen. What does happen on occasion is that not all stamps are struck with the same force and therefore some characters disappear faster than others when polishing occurs. Sometimes you’ll even find serial numbers with some characters affected by polishing simply because no care was taken.

The vent screw and its position is mentioned in Shop Dope 372.
Eric


 

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Quote from Deadeye: 'Only the 1970 case had a boss (with no numbers) at the timing plug.’


As I mentioned above, I think the number boss may have been present thru 1970 and I also have examples of it on some cases for 71 and early-72 although I’m not certain when it was omitted and there may be some overlap. Here is a photo I posted earlier.





And as you can see here, it has a 71 belly number.





Next is a 72 belly number.





And here is the number boss on the 72 case. The left BN matches the R-H BN and the engine number is 2A12+++H2.
Eric


 

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So what does that indicate ?
Some kind of anomaly?
 

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I cant see any detail in the pic of what the rear of the chest looks like, but, if it looks like a factory smooth cast walls & there is no number showing & it looks cast, then it isn't a Harley made case,......... if it looks like there has been grinding to take out a 10 digit number stamped on the back wall, then it is a Harley that has had it's identity changed, legally or illegally, ..if there is a stamped in number you can tell when it was built, & what it was built as ,FL,FX FLH,FXS 1200 OR 1340, & the day of the year it was made & the number of bike it was on that day.... if that was on it & removed it'll be obvious....there are a few pictures above showing what ya looking for, & where in the case they were stamped & the angle they were stamped at varies greatly, I have seen them stamped on the front wall once.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
the stamping on the top is higher than the bottom, so no grinding, there are different parts of the case that make me believe the right side is after market and not an original HD... the left side is def an HD case and some number did not survive polishing, it a clean engine, frame and tranny as certified by the dmv, thanks
 
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