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Discussion Starter · #61 · (Edited)
Not a problem Ratso.
A little progress and a few pics. Ring gaps checked and rings fitted to new pistons. No indication of "top" on the compression rings they do look to be square and not tapered though in the manual it does say they're tapered with a gap tolerance of .008" to 013" Thankfully all were within tolerance at around .010". Orientation of pistons confirmed though could find no difference in valve recess cut outs.
UPDATE: after further inspection of the top rings they are indeed orientated with the faintest of marking "top" that you could only make out in certain light. Not great.
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Looking good there! The wiring... that's the single thing I've found the newer manuals to be very helpful with! I've a Haynes 63-83 triumph 650/750 n it's got the nicest wiring scematics! But for the proper assembly and torque specs the old manuals are far more Accurate. There are several princes among men hearabouts , they forgot more about these bikes than I'll probably ever know. Rats is very helpful n greatly colorful!! I enjoy his commentary. Dearly miss dragon... also if ya needs clarity big d cycles Web site has part listing catalogs like nowhere else. Be careful fitting the cylinder down over the pistons.. I broke a couple rings in my haste. If yer up Fer serious commentary, simple solutions and straight forward directions watch lunmad on utube.. his videos are top notch! Bestreguards, brent
 

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Mr. Sump, do you have an idea of the owner's overall (aesthetic, I guess I mean) plan for the bike? Or is that beyond your remit and/or you don't want to know?

I wisht I had you fellas' skills and orderly minds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
Thanks for your input guys.
Yes Brent I discovered Lunmad's video's a while back and also Lowbrow customs has the entire strip and rebuild that I refer to for methods though his build is a 1968 650cc. . Lunmad is very informative if a little crude at times but he certainly knows these bikes well. Glad they took the time to make them though it certainly opened my eyes to what's involved.
Ratso - The owner wants to keep it looking similar to how it is with the low ride seat and minimal original aesthetics. Plenty of work to be done after the engine rebuild -wiring, - frame, tank etc. Previous guy did work on the brakes as far a I know. I doubt I will go any further than the engine rebuild as I just dont have the knowledge or experience though paint and cosmetics I enjoy and can do.
I will continue with pics/procedures and no doubt further questions as and when.
Cheers guys always great to read your opinions.(y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 ·
Pistons and block fitted.
I'm thinking it may well be a good idea to get back in the frame asap- its getting bloody heavy!
Happy Christmas everyone.



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The wiring isn't terribly complex, just best to work one curcuit at a time. The connectors can be irritating! I like the on/off road look. Tho my opinion is Fer ruff riding I wants a deep plush seat!!! Bestreguards, and merry Christmas to you and yours. And to all here abouts on the jj.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
The wiring isn't terribly complex, just best to work one circuit at a time. The connectors can be irritating! I like the on/off road look. Tho my opinion is Fer ruff riding I wants a deep plush seat!!! Bestreguards, and merry Christmas to you and yours. And to all here abouts on the jj.
Good advice Brent. When you look at a jumble of problems as a whole it can sometimes appear daunting. Best to break the problems down, study and trace and attempt to fully understand each system. Understand the finned unit is a solid state rectifier/regulator. Podtronic I believe and takes the place of the rectifier and Zener diode. Not fully investigate whats under the seat yet but it looks like the ignition system is Boyer and probabaly the standard fit when the bike was built though unsure on that one.
All new to me but I'm learning!
Another query.
Have looked at many of the Lunmad videos on You Tube. They're quite old but very informative. In one of his vids he says he has always used engine oil in his gearbox and never had issues . Is this common practice? EP 90 is the recommended oil but I have always thought thicker oils can cause drag particularly in cold weather. Thinner oils will find out poor seals though I guess. Like to know your thoughts.
Happy New Year to all.
 

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Sae 50 or 20w50 myself. But be sure yer seals r all good shafts not ringed w wear where the seal rides... some use royal purple in gearbox, atf In primary (non iof engines) so if ya sees a drip ya know rite away what's dripping... ignition would havebeen a lucas rita. Electronic, no parts available.. so most got boyers n kept running along. Mine did! Elictronic units r great, keep alternator wires away from n isolated so don't interfere w signals. ... don't ask how I learned this. Thank god Fer jf's help with that!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Hi Brent renewed all the seals to should be ok to use engine oil. Had a session polishing the casings today also attempting to sort out all of the different socket head bolts for the covers etc. So many different lengths a good job I have the parts book online to reference. Always a problem when a pile of parts is dumped on you. One or two missing but have managed to find the part numbers and lengths for each hole in the parts book and surprisingly been able sourced on Ebay. New oil pump and kick start cotter on order.

Another question regarding static ignition timing. The pointer in the primary chain cover aligned with the mark on the alternator rotor sets the static timing to 38deg btdc. My understanding is that is also the fully advanced figure. 38 deg seems an awful lot of advance and left me a little confused as the Boyer deals with advance electronically somehow, wouldn't 'that advance the timing even further? Also I have noted its advisable to strobe time these engines is that the case?.Pretty sure I understand the setting up of the trigger plate and rotor its just that 38deg initial static advance that's confusing me.
Any advice on head gasket . The previous guy who stripped the engine bought a complete gasket set including a composite type head gasket that looks a bit on the cheap side.. Copper also available are there any advantages using a copper gasket?
Thanks again guys - just starting to see a little light at the end of the tunnel .
 

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For future reference, a.k.a. to show off what little I know: if "kick start cotter" means the tapered pin near the lever's shaft (big) end, with a flat on one side, they can be had cheaply at a bicycle shop. They're used in about the same way on a bicycle, to secure the cranks to the front sprocket shaft. Bike-shop pins work just fine (at least, I never broke one over a lot of Triumph miles).
 

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Well I won't disagree w ratso.on cotter Fer kick starters! They hold up better then the emgo ones!! Head gaskes... the compositions are a later addition kinda thing. Will it work, yep, but you'll need ta do min 4 heat cycles n retorque.. copper, a good one, clean n coated w copper coat, torqued nice, n 3 retorque /heat cycles seem to stay sealed till rings r dust... timing, follow directions included w the specific boyer version your using, then once you have it running, strobe w a timing light using a seperate battery. Check both cylinders. Seldom are they not in agreement, but... some folks have simply put earlier points ignition n run em hard w little trouble. Boyers are coil voltage, and resistance specific. Once set and carbs adjusted, they are great ignitions, but keep a good battery in it! Good grounds, and don't let voltage fall much below 10.8 volts electronic units don't like low or high voltage ie aove 14.5.. they get very erratic. Oif heads r 10 bolt, 2 piece head bolts, if you can use thick head bolt washers trimmed to just fit under the rocker boxes as they spread out the load and keep bolts from setting into the head..
 

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The 38' advance is only while revving ie 4500 rpm n above. The pointer is Fer checking at full throttle. Now don't hold it wide open... but reved up fairly high. I've never found a single reference as to the static timing at idle... but Fer giggles I checked my 79 when running well... w boyer twas 12 ' before tdc.. my 64 650 was at 10btdc at nice idle.. the idea most seem to believe in (I do) is 38 degrees is where they designed it to stop advancing. Hope this running on at the mouth of mine has helped you more than confused. Bestreguards
 

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If you have not bought the ignition yet
Look at pazon or stay with the points they work fine
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
The 38' advance is only while revving ie 4500 rpm n above. The pointer is Fer checking at full throttle. Now don't hold it wide open... but reved up fairly high. I've never found a single reference as to the static timing at idle... but Fer giggles I checked my 79 when running well... w boyer twas 12 ' before tdc.. my 64 650 was at 10btdc at nice idle.. the idea most seem to believe in (I do) is 38 degrees is where they designed it to stop advancing. Hope this running on at the mouth of mine has helped you more than confused. Bestreguards
Thanks Brent. My thoughts are that the 38deg maker is just a point of reference and not the point of ignition and this is what has puzzled me.My experience of Static timing was to set the crank to the exact point of ignition, single figure degrees BTDC, and wire a 12v test lamp to the points and turn distributor until the light just went off- points just opening. When the Boyer ignition base plate is set to the reluctor through the hole and at 38deg btdc on the crank its set early, just before the magnets reach the pickups.The point of ignition would be later once the magnet had passed the coil pickups. Those deg btdc figures you have there look far more realistic.I guess you strobed or put on a timing wheel to know what you had. My understanding is that the electronic module handles the advance relating to RPM and have read that its important to make sure the two wires are connected to their matching colours or the advance will not work. Also I believe its a "wasted spark" system where both plugs fire no matter what stroke they're on.
I may just go with the composite gasket it has a narrow copper band firing ring which should seal the combustion gasses better but like you say a few tightenings will e required. Cheers and thanks for your thoughts always appreciated. Pete.
 

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Copper ring anneal it before fitting
 
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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
If you have not bought the ignition yet
Look at pazon or stay with the points they work fine
Thanks for that richbob. The bike came to me with the Boyer set up. Being a late bike 1981 I would imagine it came with electronic ignition from the factory though not Boyer so for the time being I will stick with that set up. I do however suspect it may well have contributed to his mainly hot starting problems that was the reason for the complete engine strip down in the first place by the original mechanic who had twice strip[ped and cleaned the carbs that did'nt change a thing. I have no idea if he checked the charging or ignition systems . I do know that because the crank was running out of true on the drive side the rotor had been rubbing the stator. You could see the wear marks on the inside of the stator.
From experience of some of the early car electronic ignition systems many years ago I know how they can fail and give intermittent non starts especially when the modules get hot. Also read that if the battery voltage drops they struggle to produce a spark. This was typical of the symptoms he was getting.
So once I get to a point where it starts and runs I will need go through the whole set up the engine should be in good fettle mechanically with everything renewed and checked in that respect.
Good to here your views. Cheers Pete
 

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If it was rubbing .. the electronic ignitions rotor is installed with the exghaust cam pin removed. It's in the cone end of shaft for alignment for the factory points or lucas rita parts. Pazon are better units. That being said all electronic ignitions on these engines have similar voltage restrictions and coIL requirements. My boyer is early, uses 2 12 volt coils , sum called Fer 2 6 volts. I had a dickens of a time setting a degree wheel and keeping it from floating around whilst revving etc to get accurate readings. There's one made for running off the cam w the boyer. It's calibrated to cam speed so it is read directly as crank timing. When all components r working fine most of these old girls make plenty of Ju ice to charge the battery. The sealed reg/rectifier seems to be best Fer longterm reliability. Make sure all is set proper timing wise ( just get it to start readily, n run smooth) that 38' at high rev seems to be the ticket. Tweak as she showas ya. MY 79 ... I retarded it a tad from boyers directions. But I had her set up high strung, ruin hot n rode it like I stole it, would've been fine save a leaking left manifold rubber.. I holed a piston. They r pretty durable and forgiving engines! No more high compression pistons Fer my old twins. But I was trying to get her to do the model number Fer top speed. ..
 

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Lotta folks r running pazon n trispark. Seem like great units. I've several boyer sets, nuffn has failed yet , n I'm a cheap ass . That's y no pazon in mine... all of them r wasted spark far as I'm aware. That cam shaft alignment pin.. mine was mostly removed and caused rotor to wobble. Never rubbed pickup plate. I didn't do it, but I sure removed it whence I noticed it! If yer is there, take it out n save that hard lil bastard. Just in case... yer doing a fine job on that bike. Engine is nicely done. You'll do fine!
 

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I'm an idiot! The rotor rubbing the charging ring... sorry not enuff coffee down my face. Low voltage causes erratic spark from boyers! Yer on the right path sir . Indeed your work is quite proper indeed! Making me want to call off wurk, ignore the need to get done stuff n get my lazy arse to wrenching on my 79... good job, keep going.
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
I'm an idiot! The rotor rubbing the charging ring... sorry not enuff coffee down my face. Low voltage causes erratic spark from boyers! Yer on the right path sir . Indeed your work is quite proper indeed! Making me want to call off wurk, ignore the need to get done stuff n get my lazy arse to wrenching on my 79... good job, keep going.
No worries Brent I often get the wrong end of the stick usually when I read through stuff too quick. That's my excuse its more than likely age related in my case!:rolleyes:
 
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