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Old 01-01-2015, 08:51 PM   #1
islanddave
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Default s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Hello All,

Does anyone have any experience with s+s reed valves in .....cough cough..... Evos's? Are they better than traditional steel breather gears? Trying to get into the wind this spring.....

Thanks Dave
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Old 01-01-2015, 08:53 PM   #2
govmule84
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Worked peachy for me. My last monstrosity had a scored-up breather bore, and the reed breather worked mint.

To keep this board friendly - I recently spoke with S&S. They have STOPPED recommending this for Shovels. It fits, I know folks who have run it no prob, but the tech said no-go. He couldn't tell me more, but apparently it is no longer Shovel-friendly.

Perhaps Kevin (Crazy Cats on here) can ring in?

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Old 01-01-2015, 09:13 PM   #3
Destralo Roach
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

They work.. but you dont need it acording to TP ... the Umbrella valves in the rocker boxes work fine.....

As to the shovels... I asked S&S and they told me why... made sence but cant remember as to why now...

Roach.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

And to back it up... when I worked at Crazy Horse we stopped using the breather in the 100ci power pluss motors for the same reason.. the umbrella valves take the place of the timed breather or reed valve...
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

pardon my ignorance but what does a umbrella valve look like and how big is one? thanks
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:06 PM   #6
Destralo Roach
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

1994 to current part in the rocker boxes of Evo and twincams...

Acts like the PVC valve on your car

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Old 01-02-2015, 05:29 AM   #7
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

You don't want to use a reed valve in a bottom breathing engine. There are some out there in which it has worked, but no promises.

The reed valve and the rotary breather give you similar results in the crankcase. They allow the oil/air mist in the crankcase to escape into the cam chest when the pistons are on the downward stroke. This is when crankcase pressure is rising. When the pistons are moving up in the cylinders the crankcase pressure is going down and the breathers close to not allow the air/oil mist back into the crankcase.

In a bottom breathing engine (like a shovel or early evo) the oil mist works is way around in the cam chest and through the passages of the cam cover into the breather cavity in the bottom corner of the cam chest. Throughout this process the oil gathers in the walls of the chamber and settles to the bottom. There is a drain hole in the back of the cavity that leads back up to the breather gear bore. A rotating breather gear has a small hole at the back that applies vacuum to this hole and draws oil out of the settling pocket. This keeps the oil from building up in the pocket. If it did not happen, the oil would be pushed out the breather tube and onto the ground. A reed valve does not have this ability so it should not be used in a bottom breather.

In a top breathing hd engine that pocket does not exist so there is no bottom breathing port for the oil to escape through. Our engines still have the pocket and can be set up as top breathers, bottom breathers or both. With a reed valve though we would keep the bottom breather tubes plugged. The air/oil mix still needs to escape though so it travels up through the pushrods tubes and into the rocker boxes. It travels through the passages of the boxes and through the umbrella valves to the breather passages in the heads, then out through the breather bolts. The umbrella valves work in conjunction with the breather gear but does not replace it. I can't speak to how TP did it but I would not run without a breather gear in either ours or a stock hd case. The biggest reason for a timed breather or reed valve is to keep the crankcase pressure low and to help pull the oil from the crankcase. This helps the engine to run cooler and make more power.
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Old 01-02-2015, 01:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

well crazy cat.. the 100 ci power pluss motor is diferent than the standard EVO as you know so it works without the breather gear.. we tride it, TP dosnt use the seperate comparment in the cam case like the HD cases do... so it works...

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Old 01-02-2015, 01:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Great info. Thanks all
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

well i will add this - we have used them since they came out years back i have the original directions that adds the 1984 to 1991 that the new directions dont, like any company its who you get on the phone the info is always different,

we had a shovel that was slobering and an 90s evo at the same time and installed the reed in both - while the 90s evo dryed right up - the shovel did not BUT the breather bore was scrached up and to me needed a re bore, so we tryed the stock size reed breather and as said it still spilled - we then bored the breather .030 and installed the .030 reed 2 years ago sitll not spilling -- same bike one week apart no other work done but front pipe and cone off to replace

now every shop usually has a different out come with many things, its the reason some are full and it takes weeks to get a spot and others are gone in a couple of years - i have looked at the mechaincs of the breather vacuum and the holes that are drilled that are in question - we have found if the breather hole itself is damaged as we see no fix can replace the metal so a machine job is needed to repair it - i have yet to repair the breather hole in any of them that became an issue after, but maybe we are just lucky as i hear all the time how it does not work ON some

as i see it if the breather is sealed with a good bore the crankcase exhaust into the nose come with a turning breather or the stand alone reed creates a vacuum by the event that is happening - high pressure air being blown out a large opening ( compaired to ) and by that it sucks on the the back side of the event // ( high pressure air passing a small hole and a higher speed ) and the small air passages in the breather hole that is at a different pressure AND in a smaller area SO - just my take someone else could have a different out come but this is ours -- jz
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Been running a reed in my stroker Shovel for the last 5-6 years with no problem. One thing I have noticed, though, is the reed valve is about 1/2 the price of the S&S breather gear, hmmm.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

I run a reed breather in my '66 shovel. It works great! I believe it does not work well on a shovel that still uses the stock primary oiling system...but if you run a sealed primary with its own oil supply no problem. I've had good experiences with them.
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

been running one on my 77 shovel with a sealed primary for about 4 yrs now with no problems.
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Old 01-03-2015, 05:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by bustedlifter View Post
Been running a reed in my stroker Shovel for the last 5-6 years with no problem. One thing I have noticed, though, is the reed valve is about 1/2 the price of the S&S breather gear, hmmm.
And yeah... they just about stopped getting any sales for the timed breather...
Hmmmmm.... indeed...
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Old 01-03-2015, 11:46 PM   #15
islanddave
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Thanks Everyone!

One other quick question......Since this valve doesn't rotate what is the merit of measuring, honing and fitting an oversize breather in a scored breather hole as would be done with a conventional breather gear? I would think that this would be unnecessary, yet they do sell over sized units.

Thanks Dave
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Old 01-05-2015, 10:12 AM   #16
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Bump....... looking at buying one.............haven't tore into engine yet cause it's too dammed cold here in canada right now.............but ordering stock size would simplify things for me..................

Does bore condition matter within reason since it doesn't rotate?

Thanks
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Old 01-05-2015, 10:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

The Evo I used it on had a scored bore, but not terribly so. Never weeped a bit... that thing was actually super oil-tight. My other Evo has one, too, and it also never weeps at all, but that went into a fresh case.

I may do a third bike this spring; if I do I will let you know how the bore looks and take pics, and you can use that for some comparison. Anecdotal, sure, but three is better than none.

If you're trying to have it done by spring, though, that means taking it down to the cases and rebuilding kind of quickly.

Again, I would hope Kevin would ring in here. He's a pretty smart fellow.
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Old 01-05-2015, 11:14 AM   #18
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

The bike only has about 17000 miles...........my original intention with the bike was to just change out the original INA cam bearing with a Torrington. While in there I felt it wise to change out the original plastic breather gear for a steel one. When I saw the s+s breather valve I though hell why not? I doubt the bore is scored really, so I thought a stock size would suffice.

Would it be wise to change the lifters as well?....................might aswell put a cam in there too while I'm at it..............$$$$$

Thanks Dave
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Old 01-05-2015, 11:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by islanddave View Post
The bike only has about 17000 miles...........my original intention with the bike was to just change out the original INA cam bearing with a Torrington. While in there I felt it wise to change out the original plastic breather gear for a steel one. When I saw the s+s breather valve I though hell why not? I doubt the bore is scored really, so I thought a stock size would suffice.

Would it be wise to change the lifters as well?....................might aswell put a cam in there too while I'm at it..............$$$$$

Thanks Dave
We may be getting off-topic, but every time I have gone into an Evo cam chest it has been the same song you're singing...change the cam bearing, and I may as well change the breather... and now I should just dump a cam in it now that I am in here.

Your bore is probably peachy if the bike got regular oil changes. I know many guys consider lifters to be a replacement item at 25k or so. After having seen several fail, I think of them as a maintenance item. I've been given to understand that the HD units are pretty good and affordably priced, and I have heard from several folks lately that the Jim's pieces seem to have slipped in quality. I'd probably just throw in some HD ones and call it a day if the bike is pretty close to stock, myself.

And, to keep this on topic and in keeping with the focus of the board, I know some of the late Shovels also had that POS nylon breather gear. I know there are mixed feelings on them, but I feel that their softness allows dirt and carbon to become embedded in them, and they can then score up their passages. Perhaps Roach or some of the other more experienced engine guys can speak to that and what they have seen, because I am sure they've been into more camchests than I have.
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Originally Posted by govmule84 View Post
We may be getting off-topic, but every time I have gone into an Evo cam chest it has been the same song you're singing...change the cam bearing, and I may as well change the breather... and now I should just dump a cam in it now that I am in here.

Your bore is probably peachy if the bike got regular oil changes. I know many guys consider lifters to be a replacement item at 25k or so. After having seen several fail, I think of them as a maintenance item. I've been given to understand that the HD units are pretty good and affordably priced, and I have heard from several folks lately that the Jim's pieces seem to have slipped in quality. I'd probably just throw in some HD ones and call it a day if the bike is pretty close to stock, myself.

And, to keep this on topic and in keeping with the focus of the board, I know some of the late Shovels also had that POS nylon breather gear. I know there are mixed feelings on them, but I feel that their softness allows dirt and carbon to become embedded in them, and they can then score up their passages. Perhaps Roach or some of the other more experienced engine guys can speak to that and what they have seen, because I am sure they've been into more camchests than I have.
If I am breaking one of the manifesto rules I am not meaning to. I have read the rules and believe that American motorcycles are allowed. I know most here have vintage bikes and I wish I did too! We have a softail picture thread, and I have seen build threads on evos,and have seen them for sale in the classified section. I know they are not as desirable as say a pan, or a knuck but its what I have. If I am walking a fine line I will stop and look elsewhere let me know please.

Thanks Dave
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