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Old 01-05-2015, 02:07 PM   #21
Destralo Roach
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Personally I do not like the plastic breather gears for above said reasons.. they grab dirt and shaving if so..

I use the steel breather gear or have used the reed valve... like has been said above as well... separate primary..... they work fine...

on the 94-99 Evo bigtwin.. you can just take it out..... the umbrella valves take there place....

Roach.
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Old 01-05-2015, 02:39 PM   #22
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Originally Posted by Destralo Roach View Post
Personally I do not like the plastic breather gears for above said reasons.. they grab dirt and shaving if so..

I use the steel breather gear or have used the reed valve... like has been said above as well... separate primary..... they work fine...

on the 94-99 Evo bigtwin.. you can just take it out..... the umbrella valves take there place....

Roach.
Wait, when you say take it out, you mean just pull the nylon breather and put nothing back into the bore?
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Old 01-05-2015, 02:51 PM   #23
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Originally Posted by Destralo Roach View Post
Personally I do not like the plastic breather gears for above said reasons.. they grab dirt and shaving if so..

I use the steel breather gear or have used the reed valve... like has been said above as well... separate primary..... they work fine...

on the 94-99 Evo bigtwin.. you can just take it out..... the umbrella valves take there place....

Roach.
I agree with the first statement, see where you are coming from with the second, and strongly disagree with the third.

I don't want to argue, but the fact is that the timed breather gear in late model evos is there to keep the crankcase pressure down. It is what differentiates the pressure between the crankcase and the cam chest. It is important for scavenging the oil and proper breathing of the engine. The umbrella valves in the rocker boxes cannot do that.

I know that you think that I am just here perpetrating some elaborate conspiracy to sell more breather gears, so I am inclined to just leave this alone, but I feel obligated to say something so that the uninitiated do not make a mistake. I don't care if you run our gear, the stock one, or someone else's. Anyone who just chooses to eliminate the breather gear all together is doing a disservice to their engine.

Will it run without it...YES
Will it operate the way it is supposed to...NO
Temperatures will be higher and power will be down.
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Old 01-05-2015, 03:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

I'd just like to go on record as saying that Crazy Cats there has never done anyone wrong that I have seen, and he's active on lots of these forums taking care of us who have questions about the S&S stuff. I have never thought he's just out there to hawk product, personally.

Roach, I respect your experience, but I am with Kevin on this - with no breather, how can the oil get scavenged from the wheels into the camchest?
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Old 01-05-2015, 04:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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I'd just like to go on record as saying that Crazy Cats there has never done anyone wrong that I have seen, and he's active on lots of these forums taking care of us who have questions about the S&S stuff. I have never thought he's just out there to hawk product, personally.

Roach, I respect your experience, but I am with Kevin on this - with no breather, how can the oil get scavenged from the wheels into the camchest?
Not knocking CC.... The wheels still drag the oil up to the scraper and in drains back in to the cam chest like it has since 1936... the latter Evos dont have the inside casting like the 1936-83 cases do... same with TP's motors they got rid of that part...

When I was at Crazy Horse we were sceptical about that... took out the gear on the Indian Power pluss motors... and it worked fine.. tried it on a couple of mule late Evo's we had... same thing.. Fine..... they oiled fine and returned fine.. didnt over heat or get any hotter than normal... so no loss of HP...

TP is not a stupid company... and they build Good motors...

Roach.
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Old 01-05-2015, 04:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Not knocking CC.... The wheels still drag the oil up to the scraper and in drains back in to the cam chest like it has since 1936... the latter Evos dont have the inside casting like the 1936-83 cases do... same with TP's motors they got rid of that part...

When I was at Crazy Horse we were sceptical about that... took out the gear on the Indian Power pluss motors... and it worked fine.. tried it on a couple of mule late Evo's we had... same thing.. Fine..... they oiled fine and returned fine.. didnt over heat or get any hotter than normal... so no loss of HP...

TP is not a stupid company... and they build Good motors...

Roach.
Then I presume that you're relying on the vacuum created by the pistons to carry the oil from crankcase to camchest? Isn't that more work for the engine to do?

I'm not trying to have a fight with you, I am truly attempting to wrap my head around this. I'd think the crankcases would be sumping like none other.

FWIW, it looks like someone else asked TP about this, and this is (supposedly) what they had to say:

http://www.bigdogbiker.com/forums/te...tml#post591894

Again, not trying to be a turd, but I have never heard anyone recommending not using a breather gear; I cannot picture Mother Harley using superfluous parts.
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Old 01-05-2015, 06:01 PM   #27
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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I cannot picture Mother Harley using superfluous parts.
Now there's a statement * no one* can disagree with. If that breather didn't perform some function, it wouldn't be in the motor.

Bob
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Old 01-05-2015, 06:42 PM   #28
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Now there's a statement * no one* can disagree with. If that breather didn't perform some function, it wouldn't be in the motor.

Bob
Harley was never cutting Edge.. they let others do the research first.. then H-D used the tech... and if it is good then there are many missing parts in the Evos that were used in the earlier motors...

the timed breather dates back to the very early motors.. and helped get oil where it was needed.. the later OHV return motors dont have the same problems as a total loss motor....

why are the case barrel baffles gone?? they are not needed in the OHV motors...

if the breather is so important then it would still be used in the Twin cam and post 77 sporty.... think on that one....

Roach.
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Old 01-07-2015, 03:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

So was looking in the Drag catalog.. and the S&S steel gear breather is now cheeper than the reed valve...



Roach.
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Old 01-07-2015, 04:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

To S&S credit they did up date the regular breather timing

original timing - opens @ TDC + or - 10*
closes @ 65* after BTC + or - 10*

new gear timing opens - 17* after TDC + or - 10*
closes - 82* after BDC + or - 10*


what they did was to slot the tail opening hole and then added another in the front --Does it work Yes it does

unless you do this sort of work this info does nothing for you But to us in the shop we need to see what others are doing, and not doing so as to be able to repeat a fix on the engine, just because i do not agree with something that was done does not have to be the end of a good engine we are just doing a re fresh - no one has endless money
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Old 01-08-2015, 01:08 AM   #31
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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if the breather is so important then it would still be used in the Twin cam and post 77 sporty.... think on that one....
Roach.
Thinking yielded this conclusion. The '77 XL breather system was *re-engineered*, and the Twin Cam was *engineered* not to have them from the start. That's quite different from simply removing the breather sleeve from an engine that was designed to use it. And it certainty wouldn't be important to an engine that never was designed for it.

Bob

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Old 01-08-2015, 01:05 PM   #32
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Thinking yielded this conclusion. The '77 XL breather system was *re-engineered*, and the Twin Cam was *engineered* not to have them from the start. That's quite different from simply removing the breather sleeve from an engine that was designed to use it. And it certainty wouldn't be important to an engine that never was designed for it.

Bob
No they just found out it wasnt needed any more and used a PCV... I work on Harleys day in and day out.. Make my own stuff.. redesign the parts to make them better.. had my own twincam design on paper back in 96... using as many H-D parts as possible.. Shaft mounted Pan rockers retro fitible.. S&S beat me to the pattend.. and theirs is not retro fitible...

I am not a key board comanndo...

Roach.
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Old 01-09-2015, 09:03 AM   #33
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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I work on Harleys day in and day out.. Make my own stuff.. redesign the parts to make them better.. had my own twincam design on paper back in 96... using as many H-D parts as possible.. Shaft mounted Pan rockers retro fitible.. S&S beat me to the pattend.. and theirs is not retro fitible...
Dude...

Really?

Like...

Really?!?
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Old 01-09-2015, 01:51 PM   #34
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Dude...

Really?

Like...

Really?!?
And what do you mean???

Roach.
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Old 01-09-2015, 09:11 PM   #35
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Originally Posted by Destralo Roach View Post
No they just found out it wasnt needed any more and used a PCV... I work on Harleys day in and day out.. Make my own stuff.. redesign the parts to make them better.. had my own twincam design on paper back in 96... using as many H-D parts as possible.. Shaft mounted Pan rockers retro fitible.. S&S beat me to the pattend.. and theirs is not retro fitible...

I am not a key board comanndo...

Roach.
Did your design utilize a gear-rotor oil pump or stick with the spur-gear type of pump? What kind of feed/return ratio?
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:01 PM   #36
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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Did your design utilize a gear-rotor oil pump or stick with the spur-gear type of pump? What kind of feed/return ratio?
I was going to use the post 77 goerotor oil pump from the sportsters.. mounted much the same as a sporty... pan pinion gear drive with the cam gears driven off that so little gear lash.. about the same as the singel cam...

lifters had to move a little bit would would have still worked...

I was using the "KISS" principle...

Roach.
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:48 PM   #37
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

The "KISS" principle? Does that mean you have to have your face covered with make-up when your thinking this stuff up/
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

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The "KISS" principle? Does that mean you have to have your face covered with make-up when your thinking this stuff up/
No its called ... "Keep it simple Stupid"

Roach.
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Old 01-14-2015, 10:10 AM   #39
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Default Re: s+s breather valve better thn steel breather gear

Oh! thanks for clearing that up for me.
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