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Old 04-26-2019, 03:58 AM   #21
thefrenchowl
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Yes, I did notice this thread, Al, but I am not an expert welder or brazer although I can do both with varying degrees of success....

The other day, I just happened to reinforce the center stand of the Jonghi that broke nearly in half due to bad design and too much kicking...

Steel bar on cast steel stand... Had all sorts of spitting problems with the TIG at about 80/100 amps on the side that can be seen... Turned it over swearing like a pig and it went ever so smoothly without changing any settings... Can only think there were carbon or sand inclusions from the moulding process...

I don't know for how long for big twins, but Ks and XLs up to well into the 70s were all as I describe them on the other forum, small electric or autogene tacks for locating then silver braze, then obviously cooled and checked for geometry...

What I can say from all the frames I've seen in me life is that brazing tops the pile... Less temperatures, the bead is convex which helps both fatigue and automatic stress relief. TIG next, precise, lots of heat, but held quite locally.

Then the stuff that should be left for ship building, MIG where you have little control of the process and stick welding, same in my opinion!!!

And of course, you can solder a lot of stuff quite successfully, old gasoline or oil tanks were mostly copper riveted then soldered, they rarely fail there if tinned properly...

So long, Patrick
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:22 AM   #22
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

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Then the stuff that should be left for ship building, MIG where you have little control of the process and stick welding, same in my opinion!!!
Ouch!!! Little control of the process is handyman quality welders. Which in my opinion are one of the culprits along with unskilled operators for poor welding performance.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:08 PM   #23
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Interestinger and interestinger. Cookie, thanks for the good video, and Patrick, glad you sidled into the discussion.

"Thank you for contacting us. Unfortunately, Informa no longer owns or operates weldingweb.com. At this time we do not have contact information to provide to you for the site administrator. I am very sorry."

I'll get to the bottom of this. Maybe.
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Old 04-26-2019, 05:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Registration not working? The site is up and functional.
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Old 04-28-2019, 04:13 PM   #25
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Default Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

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from all the frames I've seen in me life is that brazing tops the pile... Less temperatures, the bead is convex which helps both fatigue and automatic stress relief...

Patrick, did you mean concave is better, unlike some types of welded joint?

That would make sense, so maybe this sort of thing (done with TIG / silicone bronze?) - while pretty to some - is perhaps not as strong as a traditional gas brazed joint with flux? The Ďdimesí and convex fillet being stress points?



I watched another video on silver brazing frames, and one of the techniques the demonstrator focused on was heating one side of the joint with the torch and feeding the rod at the other side - you could literally see the filler being sucked in like a shadow behind the joint, coating the inner surface entirely. Vent holes were drilled to aid cleaning flux out afterwards. Really interesting. I really like TIG welding, but it would be a shame if this process was forgotten about.

I wandered into an HD dealership today and looked at the welding on some new frames. It didnít look pretty and certainly wasnít TIG. Some sort of robot MIG welder?
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Funny, Cookie, I read just the opposite in what the French Owl wrote -- convexity = better. Where'd you get the photograph above?
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Old 04-29-2019, 04:20 AM   #27
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

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I wandered into an HD dealership today and looked at the welding on some new frames. It didnít look pretty and certainly wasnít TIG. Some sort of robot MIG welder?
Yes, I toured the factory in York in 2011 and the frames were robot MIG welded, then a guy would inspect them and touch up where needed.
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Old 04-29-2019, 06:49 AM   #28
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Default Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

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Funny, Cookie, I read just the opposite in what the French Owl wrote -- convexity = better. Where'd you get the photograph above?

I kind of assumed (highly presumptuous of me, and apologies if Iím incorrect) that it was a typo, I imagined this sort of fillet...



...being better (in terms of stress in the arrowed areas, ignoring all the other factors / type of joint etc.) than this one:



Not that a weldor couldnít put down the upper bead, just that more often than not it looks like pic 2, or even more exaggerated (esp. the factory frames I was looking at).

Not sure where the pic originated Rats, I just did a Google image search for TIG brazed m/c frame.

Iíll be quiet now.

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Old 04-29-2019, 09:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

^^^^ I have seen shafts welded (no filler) after machining at the 90 degree point.. said it strengthens this area as it was a weak / stress area...
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:13 AM   #30
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

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I wandered into an HD dealership today and looked at the welding on some new frames. It didn’t look pretty and certainly wasn’t TIG. Some sort of robot MIG welder?
Yes. MIG works fine. It's not an "inferior" process, just a process suited to that specific task. Abrams tank hulls aren't TIGed either for reasons which should be obvious.

Very detailed braze fillet explanation:
https://vacaero.com/information-reso...n-brazing.html

Weld inspection handbook with good color photos, concave fillet on page 25, convex page 27 and includes corrective actions so it's an excellent training reference:

https://supplier.huntingtoningalls.c...k-2013_WEB.pdf

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Old 04-29-2019, 03:40 PM   #31
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

That Dan Kay piece (vacaero.com) is really good. Cookie got it right.
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Old 04-29-2019, 03:59 PM   #32
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Brazing is good on lap joints where you can heat the pieces being fused in order to get the bronze to flow in to the joint...as far as I know, you need to use oxyacetelene, or a brazing oven to acheive this. Love my torch! I don't know shit about tig, or mig welding with bronze...in this case I would think using steel filler rod would be the best bet.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Time for an intermission w/tragicomic video.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...t-to-weld.html
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