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Old 02-26-2020, 02:08 PM   #1
Malamute
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Default Alt left case Gen R case motor?

Anyone here built a motor with alternator left case and generator right case? I like the older stuff, but two issues, cost of initial buy, and cost to make electric start have conspired to push me to an 84 FXS. I realized that since the Vin # was on the left case in 84, I could use a generator right case and build a nicer looking motor. Using repro pan heads that fit shovel cylinders would be likely down the road also, sooner if I could find a decent used set, but the gen right case would be an interesting upgrade.

I believe the 58 to 69 pinion shafts/bearings/case race are compatible with my current 84 , so no need to change that or take the flywheels apart unless they need it at the time. I have access to motor tools to line lap and fit bearing for the right side.

I like the 8 rib cam covers, anything in particular about oiling I need to keep in mind when putting this together?
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Old 02-26-2020, 05:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

Never did this. But off the top of my head. Line lap right pinion race. r/r pinion cam cover bushing to late end oiler and ream. change to early cam and gear train. Change pinion shaft gears '77 was a change. pinion shaft changed in '81 may also need to be changed.
Others here will add too the list.
Lets get some pictures when you start.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:01 PM   #3
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

Good stuff to know, thanks!
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Old 02-27-2020, 03:45 AM   #4
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

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Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
I realized that since the Vin # was on the left case in 84, I could use a generator right case and build a nicer looking motor.
Oh NO it wasn't,..... in 84 the VIN was on the Right hand Case, if you build with HD Factory cases, Generator motors had the VIN Number on the Left and as far as I know all Alternator motors had the VIN Number on the Right case,....
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

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Originally Posted by magnum45pete View Post
Oh NO it wasn't,..... in 84 the VIN was on the Right hand Case, if you build with HD Factory cases, Generator motors had the VIN Number on the Left and as far as I know all Alternator motors had the VIN Number on the Right case,....
The information I have, which my bike conforms to, is the 83 and 84 Shovel motors had the VIN number on the left case, right below the front cylinder. All previous alternator motors Ive seen or heard of had it on the right case.

Yes, Im using the original motor as much as possible, with as little changes as needed to change the R case to a gen case.
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

I believe the vin went to the left case in the early 80's, Anyone else?
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

As far as I know it was 83-84 in shovels. The 82 I have is in the old traditional spot on the right in front of the lifter base, like my 76 was and all other pre-83 alternator shovels Ive seen are.

In studying up on it, there seems to be quite a variety of details that changed at the end of the shovels and beginning of the evo motors regarding VIN numbers. I was surprised that the 82 motor number wasnt the full number as the frame had, and older alternator shovels had, but an abbreviated version, which checked out with all sources I could find. I asked a dealer friend about it when I was looking at the 82, he had to think a minute then said that in that time period the motor number was abbreviated, but all characters matched the frame number minus some preliminary characters I think.

The 84 also has the abbreviated engine number. Not sure how they code that, they may have reasons, but the full vin has info in nearly every character that identifies the model engine/carb etc, location of manufacture, year, then one part is the actual production number for that combination of location/model.
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Old 02-27-2020, 02:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

'84 first EVO, last Shovel, first year of engine serial number back on left case.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/shove...mber-help.html
3rd post this is mentioned.
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Old 02-27-2020, 02:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

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Originally Posted by joe49 View Post
'84 first EVO, last Shovel, first year of engine serial number back on left case.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/shove...mber-help.html
3rd post this is mentioned.
Thanks, yes, thats one of the things I found when searching for info about it. Other info I found indicates that there were still variations of sorts, but 83 and 84 both show numbers on the left case. If some 83s had numbers on the R case, it may be possible there was a change during 83 production, or the 83 model year bikes that were actually built in 82 may not have had the switch of location yet. I recall there being I believe a "1979 1/2" model year when a change was introduced mid-year. I never saw the title of the friend that had it, but Id guess it was the basic year, not a 1/2. The production date info in the VIN may yield something if theres differences in 83 number locations.

So, with my oddball left case numbered last year alternator shovel motor, it gives me the opportunity to make a unique motor with improved eye appeal and interesting project potential. I can enjoy the classy look of earlier generator motors and still have the alternator and electric start, and at a much lower cost than an older bike and motor as a starting point would entail. I miss my knuckle, but not quite as much once I realized I could get some of the classic style on the 84.
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Old 02-28-2020, 11:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

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Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
Other info I found indicates that there were still variations of sorts, but 83 and 84 both show numbers on the left case. If some 83s had numbers on the R case, it may be possible there was a change during 83 production ...

Service Bulletin M-868 agrees and it indicates that for 1340cc models the change of engine number location began during the 1983 model year.





Some 83 Shovels had the engine number on the R-H case while some had it on the left case. Also notice the bulletin says there will be a few motorcycles with VINs after the above starting range stamped the old way (right-hand location).

The 83 Shovel below has its abbreviated VIN on the left case. DC indicates FLHT and K means 1340cc Shovel. Model year 1983 is indicated by the fourth letter which in this instance is D.



Accompanying R-H case of the 83 Shovel engine has four stars. (Crankcase number inside the gear compartment is 1483 1++ 0++.)
Eric

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Old 02-29-2020, 01:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

Excellent information with citation of factory source, thank you.
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Old 02-29-2020, 09:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

we had done a few of those before the electric start kits came along let us use the flat side primarys and sprocket shaft -

and others the alt cases and primarys we almost did the same - but the gen hole we used a evo sporty oil filter housing and routed it so it worked as a filter



25 / 30 or more years back guys who owned even choppers and wanted to ride but kicking was out of the question - cases was cheap not like today
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

Its interesting, one thinks of something, and generally finds they werent the first it occurred to. Id assumed it had probably been done somewhere, nice to hear from guys that have done it. I knew S&S would build such a motor, I hadnt heard specifically of anyone doing with all H-D parts.

The oil filter in the gen hole was what I had in mind. S&S and others make them. Was it a factory thing also?

I really wanted another knuckle or early pan, but the cost now, and need for electric start with my injuries made it impractical. I warmed up to the shovel after the friend mentioned it being the last year shovel as my 47 was the last year knuckle.....Its as new as I could envision myself owning in any event, regardless of whatever improvements later bikes had.

The one somewhat humbling part, when I built my knuckle in about 1979 or 80, it seemed ancient. Today, the 84 is older than my knuckle was then, and the 84 is newer than anyone I knew and rode with owned through the mid to late 80s. And it still seems so new and modern compared to what my mind envisions when H-D big twin comes to mind.
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Old 02-29-2020, 10:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

like the cars we had no seat belts at all installed
no steering lock or collapsible column
the key was in the dash face and the trunk key was different
crank windows including the vent
2 door cars the front seat did not lock up right
AM radio 2 speakers had not been invented till the fm radio then we had the reverb rear speaker

I could go on but some of us were also doing what you were doing
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Old 03-17-2020, 02:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

to get things back on track with will this work or what works and more importantly what won't work...

a 70 to 84 shovel case half will be needed to start with.
yes, a 58-69 right case half will be needed to take advantage of pinion race diameter that's larger than 57 and older.
some shaft, roller size and design changes can be worked around but it's not near as easy using a 57 and older case than it is with a 58-69.
depending on year of the right case, some different things need to be addressed.
to start with, the crankcase breather system changed slightly in 65 with an external breather port location. tin primary engines 64 and older had the passage that leads into the left case to blow on a primary chain, 65 - 69 had the passage exit from the right case. the 58-64 right cases can be modified to breathe without using the full passage that leads into the left case half. if you look closely at a 64 and older right case, there is a plug pressed onto the case that blocks the vent passage after it was drilled at the factory. I have welded a slug of aluminum and then drilled and tapped it to mount a fitting for a breather hose. it's a very easy but necessary modification that must be done.
another thing that is also necessary is pinion shaft oiling. all generator engines are side oiling. if your running any oem 70-72 complete crankshaft assembly, all is well as far as the pinion and sprocket shaft goes. a 70-72 sprocket shaft with it's added length will swap into a 58-69 set of flywheels. the 70-72 shaft has the length and also the same taper as the 58-69 left flywheels. that 70-72 sprocket shaft will also fit into a 56-57 left flywheel if you must.
any 73 and later left flywheel and sprocket shaft with the larger diameter taper will no doubt work but the issue then becomes the end or side oiling pinion shaft. a side oiling -58 pinion shaft will fit flywheels up through 1980 when the tapers changed.
if you want to use a complete 73-80 or even a 81-89 complete crankshaft assembly, the generator cases and cam cover will need to be modified for end oiling of the pinion shaft.
that opens up another can of worms with oil pumps. end oiling pinions must be fed with a 73-91 style split oiling system pump. your oem iron or aluminum body 68-72 pump will not work with end oiling pinion shafts.
then lets think about what's inside of the cam cover. 77 or older pinion gear, a generator engine timer drive, a 69 and older cam and gear, and the matching 77 and older breather gear must be used. the 78 and later pinion gear will not drive a timer gear.
don't even think about using any 90 or later evo crankshaft assembly, the pinion gear setup is just wrong in so many ways.
keep in mind that the cylinder decks and motor mounts must be machined true to each other and crankshaft centerline when doing any mix and match case halves.
most likely the pinion race in the right case half will need replacement and lapping, a line lap job at the minimum depending how well the crankshaft centerline is matched with the two different year case halves.
most every time some or maybe even all case half stud and bolt holes will need some alignment work for them to fit freely without binding.


if I was to search out the best of the best to build an engine of this type again...
any 70-84 left case half but would look for the newest of the group.
any 58-69 right case half that's in usable condition modified as needed by age group.
any 81-91 split oiling system oil pump with the cases and cam cover modified to use end oiling.
73-91 oil pump drive gears inside the cam case, it will speed up the pump compared to the 54-72 drive gears. you want the 6-24 tooth set, not the 5-25 tooth set.
a 81-89 crankshaft assembly to get the pinion end oiling and 4.250" stroke to build an 80 inch engine. yes, early evo flywheels and rods are a good thing in a shovel or pan engine when refit with new wrist pin bushings and rebalanced.
yes the rotating assembly must be rebalanced but i feel it's also necessary with any complete engine rebuild, even a 100% oem stock rebuild.
yes, shovel cylinders and s&s or std pan or shovel heads first choice or oem shovel heads if i must.

i'm sure some will say to much info and other will say i forgot something. my bet is your all right on both counts.
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Old 03-17-2020, 03:06 PM   #16
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

have a pan with mismatched cases


shovel case lhs pan case rhs


run shovel primaries and starter and a 5 speed evo in a 4 speed swing arm frame


it can be done but you will need to add a breather to the cases as the pan breather is blocked off by they shovel case
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Old 03-17-2020, 03:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

oops, I screwed up...

oil pumps... for side oiling, use a 72 or older oem or an s&s replacement for 69 and older.

for end oiling, use an s&s 69 and older replacement. then make all modifications for pumps, cases and cam cover pinion bushings as necessary

the oem or aftermarket replacement 81-91 pump will not work, duh...
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Old 03-17-2020, 04:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

we have plugged the oil escape on a side oil cam cover, and install a modded side slot end oil bushing in a flat side cover, as they both use the same oiling location in the cover its just the way it feeds the pinion - one bushing feeds through a drilled hole in its side, and the end oil bushing feed from behind the bushing, but you need to plug the weep hole or you will loose almost all the oil pressure to the top end an the bottom end
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Old 03-17-2020, 07:10 PM   #19
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

Request for add to tech archives.
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Old 03-18-2020, 12:28 AM   #20
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Default Re: Alt left case Gen R case motor?

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Request for add to tech archives.
hold on a bit... if all would like, I found some pix of most of the case and cam cover mods I do to convert to end oiling plus a few other related pix such as cam lobe to timer gear interference issues. yeah, some cams will crash into the timer gear and the gear teeth will need to be cut back such as...

https://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/...1&d=1584505633
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