what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ??? - The Jockey Journal Board

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Old 12-20-2010, 02:21 PM   #1
HRC
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Default what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

I'm thinking about embarking on a exercise in machining and design...I have a set of 1930s HD flathead cases, 1930 74" V motor to be exact. I have no other parts and it would be cost prohibitive to buy piece by piece and build this motor. It has a some minor cracking that can be fixed around the cams. I know I've heard of people using the 84" flathead flywheels in pan motors to get some extra cubes....so my question is does anybody know what crank assemblies can physically FIT in these cases? I'm not concerned with the timing side crank spindle as it will be modified , whatever it comes out of. My main concern is the dimension from outside to ouside of the main bearings and the outside width of the flywheels. Even if the bearing races on my cases are too small in diameter, they could be welded, strengthening ribs added and machined for a later, larger better bearing....anybody got a chart of dimensions from flathead to Evo??? Stock usable cranks for Evos or even twincam are so cheap if they could be machined or my cases slightly modified that would be super as you get a reliable crank and rod assy thats easy to get parts for and can handle more than enough HP. I more than likely would not be useing the 4 cam setup so would have to worry about the cam bores shifting during welding.

Any thoughts, other than, "Don't do it, It can't be done, or You need to save those cases for a restorer..."
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:56 PM   #2
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

A bit of history on the 1930 V series:
-HD tried to rush the release of the NEW flathead design too fast.
-Every 1930 V had to be recalled because the flywheels where too small and the motors had no torque.
-The recalled motorcycles had to have new cases, new flywheels, and new frames delivered and set up by the dealers.

So, first things first. Do you have a 'pre recall' set of cases? Or cases that didn't get replaced? I kinda doubt it.........I would think most owners would get the work done. But, ya never know.

I'll have to get my VL book when I get home, and tell you what to look for/measure.

Now for your original question:
VL's have 8-1/8" flywheel OD. So do early EL knucks. But, the stroke is different. It's never recommended to cut material off the OD of flywheels. Why not just buy some new flywheels from T&O? You could even buy VLH 80" flywheels.

http://www.truettandosborn.com/flywheels.htm
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

I have nothing of value information-wise. I will say good luck to you and that it sounds like you are set to do it so go for it. If we all listened to the nay-sayers we wouldn't have freakin' bikes and electricity cause "It can't be done".
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

cases in question...with bad repair from previous owner...
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Thanks for the input and the T&O link, some very good tech info all laid out on thier site. Honestly I cound even use Sporty shovel flywheels with the short stroke and smaller 7 7/8 flywheel diameter if I can't fit 8 1/2 flywheels in my case. Agreed trimming the OD can cause balance issues or cost an assload to balance with heavy metal.
The reason for not just buying new flywheels is that I dont have any of the other part of the rotating assy either. i would have a grand in the assy and THEN start machining on it to fit my application. I might as well buy a ready to run but used setup from a newer motor for a tenth of the price and start machining...
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

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Originally Posted by MIKE47 View Post
I have nothing of value information-wise. I will say good luck to you and that it sounds like you are set to do it so go for it. If we all listened to the nay-sayers we wouldn't have freakin' bikes and electricity cause "It can't be done".
I don't have anything of value to offer either except to say good luck.

HRC has a 200mph red hat from Bonneville (244+ I believe) so nay sayers don't really exist in his world.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Although it doesn't say on T&O's website, I had heard these flywheels are designed to use OHV crankpin and rods.

I suggest calling them directly to find out if you decide to go that route. I just think that will be your easiest route............but if your own time is free, and you've got the machines/knowledge to modify your cases go for it.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

yeah, some flywheels where listed as using a later cp, I sent an email, I'll see what kind of response i get and give them a ring...I just think it would be fun to make use of some cases that would not ever get used and build an old Vtwin with castaway parts and machined pieces. Single overhead cams, chain driven, but made to look as period as ohc can look on a vintage HD...yeah, Ive got most the machines in my garage and yes, it would be a long term project
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofhearted View Post
I don't have anything of value to offer either except to say good luck.

HRC has a 200mph red hat from Bonneville (244+ I believe) so nay sayers don't really exist in his world.
Thank you sir! Hey did you get that email I sent you a few weeks back on that motor for sale in the UK? If I had unlimited income that would have been cool to own and ride...
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRC View Post
yeah, some flywheels where listed as using a later cp, I sent an email, I'll see what kind of response i get and give them a ring...I just think it would be fun to make use of some cases that would not ever get used and build an old Vtwin with castaway parts and machined pieces. Single overhead cams, chain driven, but made to look as period as ohc can look on a vintage HD...yeah, Ive got most the machines in my garage and yes, it would be a long term project

I was wondering what else you had planned. I would think it would be best to get your shafts figured out first and then make some wheels to fit. Have a look at Harman's pork chop wheels. IIRC they were made out of 4130. Should be able to get 4340 billet also, but even with overhead cams and your own heads you won't be making gobs of HP. It sounds like a nice project anyway.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:59 PM   #11
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

a buddy of mine has some org VL flywheels (3 sets)...and probl even more like rods etc
i will ask him tomorrow iff he wants to let go of these parts

he's into the WL and early BT models and not into the VL type's

that would be an easy start for you
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRC View Post
Thank you sir! Hey did you get that email I sent you a few weeks back on that motor for sale in the UK? If I had unlimited income that would have been cool to own and ride...

I did Hans. Thank you but you answered your question with the words "unlimited income" : - ). A very pleasant thought though.
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Bonneville record 500 SC/PBG 111.494 mph
Bonneville record 500 SC/PBF 112.717 mph
Bonneville record 650 SC/PF 128.703 mph
Bonneville record 650 SC/PG 121.553 mph
El Mirage record 650 SC/PG 130.224 mph
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

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Originally Posted by Lucky59 View Post
I was wondering what else you had planned. I would think it would be best to get your shafts figured out first and then make some wheels to fit. Have a look at Harman's pork chop wheels. IIRC they were made out of 4130. Should be able to get 4340 billet also, but even with overhead cams and your own heads you won't be making gobs of HP. It sounds like a nice project anyway.
Yeah, not looking to go racing with this one, just build somthing unique and have cruise down the road at a good click. power output will be moderate as the cases wont take to much before they crack even if I reinforce them. I think it will be fairly easy now looking a bit closer to find a rotating assy that will fit. I would use a std output shaft like on a shovel as thats what I mainly mess with and have primary setups for that. on the timing side, that will be dictated by the main bearing and valvetrain/ignition/oiling drive.
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:26 PM   #14
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

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Originally Posted by el diablo View Post
a buddy of mine has some org VL flywheels (3 sets)...and probl even more like rods etc
i will ask him tomorrow iff he wants to let go of these parts

he's into the WL and early BT models and not into the VL type's

that would be an easy start for you
That would be super, much appreiated...and you could just throw them in your backpack when you ride up to Old Style Weekend in Sweden next year!!!
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Steve Slocomb is pretty much the experts expert on the 30-36 VL & VLH's (he wrote a resto book about them) shoot him an e-mail at http://www.vlheaven.com/ also the guy at http://www.harborvintage.com/ has parts for those aswell and may even have a set of used flywheels they put VLH parts up on the bay from time to time.
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:17 PM   #16
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Thanks Jeff, I'm totally new to this motor so any help is greatly appreciated. I got an email from C.J. at T&O Cycle , he wasn't aware of my plans to build my own top end, but nonetheless lots of good info. I'll post below just for reference for everyone if someone comes across this thread looking for early flathead info...

"Hans,

I don't know if I can help or not, but I will tell you what I know.
1930-1936 had rods that were specific to this year group. They used a small
crankpin and they were longer than OHV rods. I do not know what the rod
length was. The flywheels we make for this are the same size as stock
flywheels. They are not larger or heavier, they are direct replacement.
There were a lot of things done differently on 30-36 compared to anything
later. The biggest problem I think will be the pinion shaft oiling and
timing. 30-36 used a pinion shaft that was keyed at the 6 o'clock position,
and the oil hole ran through the flywheel in a straight line from the pinion
taper to the crankpin taper. All the later flathead and OHV shafts had the
shaft keyed at the 3 o'clock position and the oil hole off to the side and
connected to another hole running off to the side from the crankpin taper.
As far as stroke the 30-36 was 4" stroke, the OHV flywheels are 3 31/32"
this is close enough to work, but the later flathead wheels are longer
stroke, so they will not work. To make it work you would have to re-key the
later flywheel at 6 o'clock to keep the gear timing correct, and you would
have to drill the pinion shaft to make the oil hole line up with the later
flywheel. This could work, but you would have 2 keyslots in the flywheel
and two oil holes in the shaft...this would run the risk of getting put
together wrong at some point and destroying lots of stuff. The next problem
would be rods. You would have to find a set of rods that was the same
length as the 30-36, but used a larger crankpin to fit in the later
flywheels. You would also have to turn the later flywheels down to 8 1/8"
outside diameter. This could probably be done, but there may be other
problems I have not thought of, and if you were wanting to change the case
from bushing to bearings...I wouldn't know where to start. Hope this
information helps, if you have any questions I will try to answer them.

Thanks,

C. J. Osborn
Truett & Osborn Cycle




Good shit....Hans
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Here's some more info from Steve Slocombs book (Harley Davidson 1930-36 big twins, Buying, restoring and riding a VL)

Copyright material removed (my appologies to the Author)




I was gonna post the section about connecting rods but its a lot of info on balance factors and the only thing it says about the connecting rods is that they are not available as reproductions so that leaves you trying to find an original set. Its a great segment of Harley history, but many of the parts are unique to these years only I've got a 36 thats about 75% complete but I'm missing some really expensive parts, also its not a mainstream thing the guys who have the parts hold on to them and there doesnt seem to be any exchange or chat room devoted to this specific bike at least that I'm aware of. Also check the jockey journal thread on the Rikuo, prior to WWII the Japanese received permission to reproduce this bike and did so clear up to something like 1965, yet another interesting piece of Harley history surrounding this model. Parts could be had at the El Camino Swap meet in So Cal (check the J.J. thread for dates. Ive also heard that the Davenport Swap is another good source.

Last edited by JeffO; 12-24-2010 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

I tried to get Steve Slocomb to join the conversation but got no reply........
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

Are any Rikuo parts usable for this motor ?

Or did stuff get changed a little ?
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:18 PM   #20
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Default Re: what crankshafts will fit a 30s VL etc case ???

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Are any Rikuo parts usable for this motor ?

Or did stuff get changed a little ?

Thats exactly what I was thinking, but I think there were some subtle changes, Theres a little bit about it on the Rikuo Thread.
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