new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder - The Jockey Journal Board

Go Back   The Jockey Journal Board > General Discussion > The Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-16-2019, 10:08 AM   #1
Winnebago
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 8
Default new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

My cone shovel is blowing white smoke out of the front pipe, (none from rear pipe) but only at slow idle when hot, as soon as I pick up the revs even a little, the smoke clears, then takes a few seconds at slow idle before it starts again. I don't think its smoking at any other time.

Its also started blowing droplets of oil out of the breather hose, not enough to drip, just a mist of drops that I can see on my tyre sidewall and rim.

2 weeks and 800 miles ago I replaced worn solid lifters and blocks with new S&S tappets and hydros and new 'made in japan' lifter blocks. I'm very confident it wasn't smoking then, and it definitely wasn't spewing oil mist from the breather.

Hot compression test is 140 psi in both cylinders. I blew compressed air into spark plug holes at TDC and can hear a small amount of air coming out of timing plug, but sounds the same for front and rear. No oil on spark plugs or inside pipes. Engine has 8000 miles on new barrels, pistons, rings, guides, seals and valves. Engine pulls hard and runs well, only iffy bit is the rocker arm bushes are worn. It has hardly used any oil in 7200 miles, but the oil level has dropped an inch or more in the last 800 miles (I changed the oil after replacing the lifters)

I cant put the old lifters and blocks back in to check as one of the rollers was failing. I caught it in time, and drilled the pin out to check all the needles were still in it, which they were.

I'm totally stumped, any help would be appreciated.
Winnebago is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-16-2019, 04:29 PM   #2
johnjzjz
Senior Member
 
johnjzjz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: jersey
Posts: 1,134
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

with out knowing how you adjusted the new hyd lifters ( and new the start location is very difficult ) one can only guess the new lifters ( possible ) reached new installed heights ( they traveled more then the solids ) - this will cause depending on the camshaft you have - the bottom of the top retainer to make contact with the valve seal damaging it - that is if in fact you have seals - and at idle it will puddle oil in the seal location causing iut to be sucked into the guide - this is my guess

with out seals they tend to stick a valve in place causing different issues so I guess you have seals
__________________
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers
johnjzjz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 05:00 PM   #3
Winnebago
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 8
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

Thanks for your reply

I have seals in it. They are the ones with the tiny coil spring lip retainer rather than the flat tin type ones. The cam is an Andrews J grind. springs and valves are all stock type, its a 1200.

I put new S&S adjustable pushrods in at the same time as the lifters and adjusted them as per the S&S instructions, 4 turns from zero lash. Out of curiosity I tried the other way too, tightening them all the way down and backing them out 1.5 turns, both ended up at same adjustment. The lifters were clean and empty of oil when I started, and I was careful to turn the engine over as few times as possible when adjusting them to avoid pumping them up.

If the valve seal is damaged, how would that explain the oil out of the breather? (I ask because the valves and guides only have 8000 miles on them, and so should function without needing seals I guess?)

I took the exhausts and carb off this evening and there is a small amount of oil on and around the front cyl valve guide in the exhaust port, and a small pool of oil in the manifold on the front cyl side.

It might just be my imagination, but I think the bike feels just a tiny bit soggy since changing from solids to hydros, not pulling quite so powerfully as it did. But it makes a hell of a lot less racket, so maybe I'm imagining it.
Winnebago is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 08-16-2019, 06:00 PM   #4
johnjzjz
Senior Member
 
johnjzjz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: jersey
Posts: 1,134
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

the different power is expected

the oil tells me you have made contact with the seal as they seals as you know keep the oil in the engine

breather issue is another thing not actually related unless pieces of what ever went down the oil return in the jug - and then into the back side of the breather cause damage to the block -- but that is a stretch

at this point in the shop we would be pulling some of it apart to two directions just to confirm - what might be
__________________
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers
johnjzjz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 06:11 PM   #5
rhysmort
Senior Member
 
rhysmort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 1,309
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

Just to reinforce what John has said, if there's oil pooling and being sucked through that's definitely damage to the seal or seat. I would imagine the hydro lifters movement is the issue and it's kissed/come into contact.

I personally don't like hydro's at all, there's too many variables with them, solid are very loud, but you know exactly where you stand with them. Hopefully it's a quick fix.

Oil mist coming from the breather unless I'm mistaken isn't out of the norm, my panhead used to do exactly what you've mentioned and it never caused any issue.
rhysmort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 08:37 PM   #6
Fetch
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 98
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnebago View Post

I cant put the old lifters and blocks back in to check as one of the rollers was failing. I caught it in time, and drilled the pin out to check all the needles were still in it, which they were.
.
Is it possible the blown tappet roller could have been hammering away long enough to cause the damage and has nothing to do with the new lifters and adjustment?
Fetch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2019, 09:45 AM   #7
JAWS
Senior Member
 
JAWS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: la la land
Posts: 8,513
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

How long did it sit before you rode and saw the oil on your tire?

I cant stop wondering about oil returning to the case and If there is to much up top.

I dont know where Im going with this either.
__________________
60% of the time, it works every time...
JAWS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2019, 10:37 AM   #8
joe49
Senior Member
 
joe49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tonica Il
Posts: 1,807
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnebago View Post
If the valve seal is damaged, how would that explain the oil out of the breather? (I ask because the valves and guides only have 8000 miles on them, and so should function without needing seals I guess?)
Debris from the tappet damaging the scavenge side of the oil pump, or restricting the drain in the cam chest. Either would cause oil build up in the cam chest. Add in possible damage to the crank case breather, will give you some things to look at.
__________________
OLD MOTORCYCLE ENTHUSIAST
joe49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 04:36 PM   #9
Winnebago
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 8
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

johnjzjz was right, valve collars had hit seals, trashed them. Bits of garter spring have badly scored breather bore. on 12 month old S&S cases
No one to blame but myself, should have checked install height.

Took seals off, fitted new rocker bushes, reassembled, bike now smokes from rear cylinder instead of front.But same thing, heavy smoke at idle, goes away with revs, comes back after a few seconds back at idle.

Put solids back in and the oil drops from the breather went away. Put hydros in and it came back. Confusing.

As I said earlier, valve guide clearance is within spec, so even without seals it should be fairly smoke free, theres definitely something odd going on. Trying to work out if theres too much oil in the rocker boxes, previously disguised by my recently deceased guide seals. Please see my other thread about oiling system questions.
Winnebago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2019, 04:39 PM   #10
Winnebago
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 8
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

Jaws -
its a daily, so it hardly ever sits for more than 12 hours, and I took off both barrels to check oil return passages from heads (I'm also thinking too much oil in heads)
Winnebago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2019, 09:09 PM   #11
Scott McKelvey
Senior Member
 
Scott McKelvey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Balt, MD
Posts: 871
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnebago View Post
johnjzjz was right, valve collars had hit seals, trashed them. Bits of garter spring have badly scored breather bore. on 12 month old S&S cases

Took seals off, fitted new rocker bushes, reassembled, bike now smokes from rear cylinder instead of front.But same thing, heavy smoke at idle, goes away with revs, comes back after a few seconds back at idle.

Put solids back in and the oil drops from the breather went away. Put hydros in and it came back. Confusing.
So is your working theory that both heads would have been smoking the same before the tappet change because the heads have too much oil, and that the only reason they didn't before was because of the Guide seals? Then you trashed a seal on the front head (but the rear was still good), then it started smoking? Then you tore a bunch of stuff apart and removed the rear seals, and that's why it's smoking now? And in the course of all of this, the breather gear bore is not scored?

Assuming the above is true:
  1. Oil drops from breather- you said you breather bore was badly scored (what did you do to fix). You put in solids and there's less oil, you put in hydros and there's more oil from the breather. When you put in solids, do the tappet blocks have blocked passages as is typically done, or are you using gaskets without a hole? Thats my best guess as to difference between when oil you see when switching between solids and hydros. But the root cause is that your breather is mucked up and can't deal with any extra oil.
  2. rear head now smoking- seems like you've had so much stuff apart, could the rear head now be something else entirely, and just a coincidence? Any scoring in cylinders? I agree with you, if the guides\valves\returns are in order then you shouldn't need seals. So, onto #3 below.
  3. Oil line restriction- i've read the restrictor stuff, but it's certainly never been an issue in my experience. There's a million shovels out there not suffering from that. The stock fittings are already ~.1" anyways. Is your fitting at the case about that size? That said, it sounds like you have alot of S&S stuff, so do you have their high volume pump? If so, maybe you are onto something about too much oil (I think even S&S acknowledges that pump is too much for pre-evo motors). To that end, even their install guide says they've had good results going down to .06".
  4. Lastly, just in general, i've seen a clogged filter/screen on the return side cause all kinds of oiling headaches (or even when guys were being cool running automotive filters throughout the 2000's).

So, with any luck, 1) you run your solids and get away with a damaged breather, and your breather drip stops. 2) you got the HVHP pump, so you change your pump or restrict top end flow, and you smoking goes away.
__________________
Scott McKelvey
www.velvetcustoms.com
Instagram
Scott McKelvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2019, 05:00 AM   #12
govmule84
Forum Dipshit
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 3,787
Default Re: new lifters seem to have caused smoking cylinder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott McKelvey View Post
So is your working theory that both heads would have been smoking the same before the tappet change because the heads have too much oil, and that the only reason they didn't before was because of the Guide seals? Then you trashed a seal on the front head (but the rear was still good), then it started smoking? Then you tore a bunch of stuff apart and removed the rear seals, and that's why it's smoking now? And in the course of all of this, the breather gear bore is not scored?

Assuming the above is true:
  1. Oil drops from breather- you said you breather bore was badly scored (what did you do to fix). You put in solids and there's less oil, you put in hydros and there's more oil from the breather. When you put in solids, do the tappet blocks have blocked passages as is typically done, or are you using gaskets without a hole? Thats my best guess as to difference between when oil you see when switching between solids and hydros. But the root cause is that your breather is mucked up and can't deal with any extra oil.
  2. rear head now smoking- seems like you've had so much stuff apart, could the rear head now be something else entirely, and just a coincidence? Any scoring in cylinders? I agree with you, if the guides\valves\returns are in order then you shouldn't need seals. So, onto #3 below.
  3. Oil line restriction- i've read the restrictor stuff, but it's certainly never been an issue in my experience. There's a million shovels out there not suffering from that. The stock fittings are already ~.1" anyways. Is your fitting at the case about that size? That said, it sounds like you have alot of S&S stuff, so do you have their high volume pump? If so, maybe you are onto something about too much oil (I think even S&S acknowledges that pump is too much for pre-evo motors). To that end, even their install guide says they've had good results going down to .06".
  4. Lastly, just in general, i've seen a clogged filter/screen on the return side cause all kinds of oiling headaches (or even when guys were being cool running automotive filters throughout the 2000's).

So, with any luck, 1) you run your solids and get away with a damaged breather, and your breather drip stops. 2) you got the HVHP pump, so you change your pump or restrict top end flow, and you smoking goes away.
Solid advice there. I wouldn't be mucking with anything til that breather cavity was doing OK. Might be worth a call to S&S to talk about their reed breather. They used to recommend it for Shovels with scored up bores, but then maybe they stopped? Worst comes to worst, you gotta get that dealt with and split cases. Happily, it's the right side, and the right side requires no special tooling to take it down to the case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you need to line-bore, either, so damn near all the expensive stuff on your engine can be left in place... this is just going to cost you some gaskets.
__________________
"Polished chrome and shiny paint were our gods and we prayed at their altar. Patina does not mean neglect but the wear and tear from use and care." - VonWegener
govmule84 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:39 PM.