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Old 02-02-2011, 10:10 PM   #41
MarkWinch
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

I'm seriously considering just taking the stuff back to the guy. It seems like too much hassle.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:14 PM   #42
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

dont let the title guys get your feathers ruffled. its a great start to a totally killer bike.
you have a bill of sale, just do some research, figure it out, get it registered. these guys love to scare away the new builders with scary stories about the booger man and his nasty crooked title tricks to get you shipped off to siberia. if it comes to it, sell the frame, buy a flyrite or something, and go from there. anyway, dont scrap the build just yet, just figure out your real options.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:14 PM   #43
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

yeah my buddy build hot rods and he says the same thing about the forum boogymen. i figure if i get the vin off the motor and run that and if its clean just go from there. forget the frame. just have to do a bit of sanding on the thick ass paint on the motor
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:31 AM   #44
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

Yeah, figure out your real options. Right now, you can take that shit back and get your money or you can start stripping that paint and possibly be out your money. I know how you feel. I've desperately hoped some deal was legit that I knew deep down was probably bogus and I got fucked in the process. Because you gotta admit, you got a few unknown variables in this situation. Is the vin there under all that black paint? If it is, then is it clean or are the numbers funny? It's a risk. Shit, black cases are always a risk. What are they hiding?

I don't know about you, but I've been in bed with enough nasty women to know that if something smells funny, no matter how hard I am, I walk...most of the time. Hope it all works out whatever way you decide to go.

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Old 02-03-2011, 09:03 AM   #45
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

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Originally Posted by MarkWinch View Post
I'm seriously considering just taking the stuff back to the guy. It seems like too much hassle.
Ok, lets take a step back and let me ask some more questions (verify)
...before you return it.

1. Is the frame number exactly the same as the ownership (motor, we still don't know for now...)
2. Can you not ask the PO about the motor numbers?
(really...HE didn't verify the numbers before slapping three coats of paint on it? It's be in the hands of known people as he told you...can they not verify that...)
3. Is this a Ontario ownership with "1970 Harley Davidson..." on it?
- If it's 2011 and your willing to pay insurance, otherwise take it back.
4. Have you called the "office" to find out whether Ontario requires both numbers to match, frame only to match, or motor only to match, the ownership...I can not remember so I can not advise you. If it's frame only, your golden...but I think it's both...
5. If all pans out, you still need a b.o.s. that does not have "parts" onit anywhere. But, can be "not running condition". I do not think I would even use the word "unfit".

Remember, no matter how good of a deal you got, how good it will look, you have to reasonably get it insured and on the road.
Or do you want to finish it and put it in your living room and admire it from your couch...

Again, that's why you see these "projects" out there, and cheap at times because guys that have done the resource don't go for them, they know...I almost fell into the same situation myself because it was a great deal with awsome potential...
I can't remember the custom builder in T.O. now (he's been on tv when the chopper hipe was on tv) but, their business/market sales, building customs, has been hit because of insurance company rate and Ont. reg.'s
Don't be afraid of the forum boogie man, some of them know what they are taking about.

wow...that's all for now...
Derek
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:07 AM   #46
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

im in a similar deal, 76 fx frame no paper, 72 motor no paper...had the numbers checked out on the frame and motor and all is well, hired a title company to get me paper for the frame and all seems well now....if the numbers are not hot and you have receipts the worst you'll have to do is title it as a custom.....basically as long as nothings hot it will all work out one way or another....get the numbers checked and go from there, your situation witht the frame sounds abit fishy but if its legal the fish smell goes away pretty fast
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:23 AM   #47
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

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im in a similar deal, 76 fx frame no paper, 72 motor no paper...had the numbers checked out on the frame and motor and all is well, hired a title company to get me paper for the frame and all seems well now....if the numbers are not hot and you have receipts the worst you'll have to do is title it as a custom.....basically as long as nothings hot it will all work out one way or another....get the numbers checked and go from there, your situation witht the frame sounds abit fishy but if its legal the fish smell goes away pretty fast
When you say "title", I automatically assume the U.S., even state by state there are different reg.'s and laws, can't remember now but some state(s) you need only a bill of sale and you can register vehicle, not title it, but, just register (because of the age of the bike).
Definately, things are different here in Ontario, Canada...
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:01 AM   #48
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

if the guy is willing to give you back the money, do it, be smart.get your money back. there are to many deals out there to be wasting your time tring to fix paper work.
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:27 AM   #49
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

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Originally Posted by chromepig View Post
if the guy is willing to give you back the money, do it, be smart.get your money back. there are to many deals out there to be wasting your time tring to fix paper work.
Not bad advise...and the project still needs alot of work from current state to an idea in ones head...but if he REALLY wants too...he can exhaust his efforts and get the answers before handing it back.

I sold a '75 FX with wideglide frontend, granted it needed work (blown head gasket) and a bit of a rat bike (flat black still looked good).
Bought it for $3800 complete and matching numbers with proper Ontario ownership (title).
Due to other projects, I sold it for $4200...
So, they are out there, especially now a days...
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:49 AM   #50
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

Yes the fame number is exactly the same as the ownership. The guy said he would go with me to try and get the 2011 stuff such sorted out.

The motor I have no idea He said it was sitting in his father in laws garage along with the rest of the bike in pieces. He did the rebuild and painted everything and didnt even think about the engine numbers.

I've heard over and over its frame only for the numbers in ONT. Doesn't matter if the numbers match. But it would be good to have them visible so i can prove nothings hot
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:07 PM   #51
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

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Originally Posted by MarkWinch View Post
Yes the fame number is exactly the same as the ownership. The guy said he would go with me to try and get the 2011 stuff such sorted out.

The motor I have no idea He said it was sitting in his father in laws garage along with the rest of the bike in pieces. He did the rebuild and painted everything and didnt even think about the engine numbers.

I've heard over and over its frame only for the numbers in ONT. Doesn't matter if the numbers match. But it would be good to have them visible so i can prove nothings hot
Find out from the "horse's mouth" sortta speak...the Driver's office...don't take my guesstimate or anyone elses.
Also ask them about the motor number, if clean, if it has any relevance...
There could be someone out there with frame and ownership (just like you) for your motor if you don't check it out...you will know because they will tell you its already registered or stolen...

So, work with the seller, tell him you want to make sure, whether you keep it or give it back to him, you will BOTH know the deal with the motor.
He should realize this too, for his own benefit.

If the motor checks out clean, and what you VERIFY about Ont. reg. (frame and Ownership) is correct, you should be one step closer.
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:47 PM   #52
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

yeah i guess i should go in and talk to them. but i have to get the ok from this guy yo take a wire brush to his cases to try and get a number off of them. It would be so much easier but the guy lives in niagara which is about a hour and a half away. I've had to go there twice already.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:07 PM   #53
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

the more i think the more i should just take the stuff back. i dont need the headaches even if the motor is legit. I should just wait for a whole bike with matching everything comes up right?
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Old 02-03-2011, 02:32 PM   #54
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkWinch View Post
the more i think the more i should just take the stuff back. i dont need the headaches even if the motor is legit. I should just wait for a whole bike with matching everything comes up right?
That's my vote! You got a good deal, but save up another grand and you'll still get a good deal without all the headaches!
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Old 02-03-2011, 02:43 PM   #55
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

QUOTE=MarkWinch;689797]the more i think the more i should just take the stuff back. i dont need the headaches even if the motor is legit. I should just wait for a whole bike with matching everything comes up right?[/QUOTE]

That's the only way I personally buy a bike...
But, thought maybe help a bro out and you not get stung,
Maybe, did not know what you know now, when you bought it.

Lesson learned, and you are lucky the sellers willing to take it back.

You want to buy a '73 XLH Sportster for $3500 (not currently running)

Click image for larger version

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Old 02-03-2011, 08:37 PM   #56
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

if he will let you scratch the cases to get the number do that,and if all is cool at the dmv.see about a deal on just the engine.if not you got a deal on that sportster and its in your area,good luck either way
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:53 PM   #57
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

I know I'ma little late to chime in here but ....WOW! This was fucking painful!!!

Here it goes. I've done it both ways here in Ontario, Canada.

First I've had a dealing with an "RBT" VIN. This is when the bike either doesnt have legible VIN #s or something of the such. It is simply given out after your build to title the frame. The shitty thing about that here in Ontario is that it's a pain in the ass to get insurance. Very few companies will even touch it. But they are out there. Also they will only give you liability insurance.
Next is the other route with the actual frame numbers. I currently have an "84 sporty frame with a 92 motor. Its only the frame numbers that the MTO asks for. Nothing about the motor. For all they know (and care) you could have blown up the motor and threw an new one in. They don't ask. they don't care.
So what I'm currently riding is an '84 frame that has been cut and a hartail weled onto it. The frame retains it's VIN and the insurance company insures it as a stocker and not an RBT or custom.
Now going back to the motor numbers....I've never been pulled over and asked to show matching nubers (and I've been pulled over alot lemme tell ya). They may look to see the ownership matches the frame but thats it unless they have suspision that your riding hot parts. No biggie there.
So in short. I would just get buddy to redo the bill of sale to state something like "...sold one motorcycle VIN # (insert frame number here)bla bla bla, in as is condition to so-and-so for "X" amout of cake..." take it to the MTO and bingo bango bongo you have a titles bike in your name as unfit until you get it saftied...

Whew! You owe me a beer!

Pilot.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:07 PM   #58
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

I've done a bunch of riding in ontario....lived in michigan. On my stock wideglide, I never had a problem.....but my 56 rigid stroker was another story. I would get stopped for no reason at all by the opp......just to be checked over. Gang stuff was the reason they gave me. A hassle, and sure glad ALL my numbers, and paper were legit. But I wouldn't have it any other way. I've got friends that met up with a cop having a bad day. Goodbye scooter....even with CORRECT everything.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:23 PM   #59
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

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Originally Posted by MarkWinch View Post
are there any numbers on the inside of the cases? because everyone says check the outside but i dont know exactly where to look. everyone says right side bla bla bla. well im not going to sand down the whore right side because i dont know EXACTLY where to look. I thought i read somewhere that they are on the inside too
thats true on EVO and twin cam not shovel.
and don't forget you may have numbers on the trans too, they come up as hot numbers once and a while.
The word I got from my CHP Vin inspector is just about 50% of Harley motors sold without titles are stolen.
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Last edited by Tony the torch; 02-26-2011 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:28 PM   #60
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Default Re: 1970 Shovelhead Build.

The cops here in Ontario are hell bent on pulling over anyone with a "patch". Most others they leave alone for the most part.
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