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Old 09-26-2020, 10:18 AM   #1
[JP]
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Default 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

Hi all!

Been using the 68 genny recently for the school runs (something that I've dreamt off since the day my girl was born.. pick her up on a bike), that was the reason why I got the saddlebags so I could take her bike kit and school gear back and forwards and my work stuff.



Anyway, opened this thread up as just another photo diary kind of thing, most of the stuff we all probably know how to do, but there might be someone out there looking for this and taking ideas and tips, so if we can help that, it's great.


Ok, so what's been happening... I have been finding that at higher revs the clutch was slipping. specially on steep hills so decided to open up and have a look.

Pain in the ass having to remove the exhaust out the way.


to remove the clutch, take the locking nut off, put a couple of washers, do it up to compress the springs, then the nuts on the fingers are loose and you can undo them by hand and remove the pressure plate.


then you can get the clutch plates out and inspect how shit they look.
mine are all glazed and shinny and the first one (or last one?) also has what looks like grease.. doesnt help with the no spinning kind of thing does it? haha





Once I got to this stage I thought.. well, its all buggered and need new clutch kit.
then I spun the basket.... I'm sure this noise is not supposed to be there.


so.. off we go taking more shit out.

get a thick metal plate and put it between the sprockets like this. then you can undo the front. To do it up you flip the plate (higher on the front sprocket, lower on the rear)



then you need to undo the clutch hub nut (left hand thread - righty loosy? haha). for that, get an old clutch plate, weld it to a long steel plate so it locks it self on the floor and undo that nut. don't forget to fold back the tabs on the washer behind it.



then... (fkin never ending story) you need to get the clutch hub out.
for this I used something I done years ago and it's pretty flimsy but does the job and I havent got around to make a better one.
the science behind it is to pull the home made plate by pushing against the hub nut, and the home made plate in turn pushes on the clutch fingers nuts. hope it makes sense.
I undo the clutch hub a few threads, then put a socket over it (not on the photo) then a metal flat where the screw is going to push against. Don't shit yourself when it finally pops out.



Once that bastard was out and I didn't die of heart attack with the bang, I found out the outer side of the support bearing had gone walkies somewhere... awesome.



then I grabbed my shaft (oooerrrrr) and spun it a bit more, just to hear it one more time.



And that's where we are at the moment.
sound seems to come from the other side, maybe kicker side. who knows, mechanical sounds seem to travel everywhere.
the shaft end looks in good condition so doesnt lead me to believe it's all been neglected. (although I've had this bike for a bunch of years I probably only done about 500 miles on it, not even run in from engine rebuild)

stay tuned for more episodes of what was a "let me just check the clutch plates"
feel free to give some ideas of what might be and any other general comments.

I think my next step is take the kicker cover off see if there's anything there making this noise. If i take it off and noise is gone, then I'm not even going to get the gearbox out if I don't have to. pain in the ass removing everything - solenoid, starter, drain oil, remove oil tank... etc etc etc...

thanks!
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

That sounds like your dog gear in the kicker isn't disengaging at all!
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

couple things - look up a clutch add on called a ( ram jet ) i see you do not have one - what it does is keep the clutch basket shell in place and does not allow it to walk out to the left when you pull the clutch in < this causes the neutral to become an issue, as the disc and steel distance goes away - and as you continue to adjust to get the thing to neutral - your too tight to hold correctly under load and it slips - one of the fixes in the shop is a ram jet - the other is - i see you have the ball and spring steel plates - if you grind off the rivets and put them one at a time on a mirror both sides and see of they are actually flat you can re use if not they are junk throw that one away

today we never re install spring and ball steels we convert to the later flat steels that do not have the ball and spring from harley - but in a save some money you can grind off the ball and spring and discard - hand clutch - foot clutch the throw is a lot longer and is not affected by this -

now i see you have an import 5 stud clutch hub and if you run your finger along the any of the posts you will feel ditches this is a normal wear BUT - install each of the clutch discs one at a time slid them left to right on the hub and see if they stick even a little stiffness is not good

what you do is drill the next side bigger hole in the clutch disc so its totally free to move in and out < cant be influenced by anything - then they also make an alloy spring plate do you need it with a 5 not really - but we have installed them cant say i see a difference

the replacement bearing we use rubber shielded bearings ( not open end type ) as the chain debris and clutch cast offs effes the bearing up right away - we then take the new bearing pop out one of the shields and wash out the china crap they use ( we only install usa bearings but they are local to me the bearing store ) and something like mobile 1 synthetic grease pack it well and put the rubber shield back on - your good for quite a while and next time its all apart a re pack is all that will be needed -- if its a usa bearing bets of on china crap
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Old 09-27-2020, 08:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

Real good writeup, JP.
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjzjz View Post
couple things - look up a clutch add on called a ( ram jet )
Hi john, quoted your post but deleted the whole thing so we didn't end up with a repeat of everything but I'll address what you wrote up that for sure helps someone else reading this.

I use the ramjet on my other bikes (the cone and the Pan), on the cone I have even got rid of the caged bearings and installed the roller bearing kit, much much better than the standard cage.

the fingers do have a slight groove on them, and as you say that usually stops the clutch for sliding freely. I think I have a spare clutch hub, but if I dont I'll drill the new plates a little larger to allow for better free movement.

the support bearing was actually a sealed unit, but not the rubber one you mention, its the ones that have a flat metal bit..that disappeared and exposed it all. I'll get a rubber one to replace.


Haven't had the time to get back in the garage and take the kicker cover off, but will post more photos and what I find when I do.
One other thing, the clutch basket seems to be slightly grooved where the clutch plate dug into, nothing major, but wonder if it's worth putting it on the lathe and smooth it down a bit to increase contact surface with the clutch plate?
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Old 09-28-2020, 10:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by '[JP
Haven't had the time to get back in the garage and take the kicker cover off, but will post more photos and what I find when I do.
One other thing, the clutch basket seems to be slightly grooved where the clutch plate dug into, nothing major, but wonder if it's worth putting it on the lathe and smooth it down a bit to increase contact surface with the clutch plate?
I'd definitely have a look at it man. Anything that can cause sticktion or catching. My old 5 finger hub had slight wear marks on the fingers, it stopped the plates moving freely! makes a real diff!

It could be your spring is fucked, so not letting the kicker gear or the dog gear disengage. Could be one of the gears is worn out!
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Old 09-28-2020, 12:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

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Originally Posted by rhysmort View Post
It could be your spring is fucked, so not letting the kicker gear or the dog gear disengage.
as there is no 'Dog Gear' in the kickstart assembly, do you mean either the Mainshaft starter gear (33430-50), the starter clutch (33560-75) or the starter crank gear ( 33350-36) ?
to some it can be very confusing when you don't use the correct terms,....
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

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Originally Posted by rhysmort View Post
I'd definitely have a look at it man. Anything that can cause sticktion or catching. My old 5 finger hub had slight wear marks on the fingers, it stopped the plates moving freely! makes a real diff!

It could be your spring is fucked, so not letting the kicker gear or the dog gear disengage. Could be one of the gears is worn out!
I think you need to re-read what I wrote lol

Quote:
the clutch basket seems to be slightly grooved where the clutch plate dug into, nothing major, but wonder if it's worth putting it on the lathe and smooth it down a bit to increase contact surface with the clutch plate?
clutch basket grooved, not the fingers, fingers are part of the clutch hub, not the basket.

When I mention put on the lathe is to smooth the grooves on the basket, where the clutch plate makes contact. Dont think you can put the fingers on the lathe.
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

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I think you need to re-read what I wrote lol



clutch basket grooved, not the fingers, fingers are part of the clutch hub, not the basket.

When I mention put on the lathe is to smooth the grooves on the basket, where the clutch plate makes contact. Dont think you can put the fingers on the lathe.
Sorry,

I did read it, I meant, anything inside there which can cause the clutch to hang up or not play nicely! and was referring to I had grooved fingers! my bad haha! Bike looks amazing though mate!
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Old 09-29-2020, 03:51 AM   #10
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

I did all what john said bought a new clutch pack (no ball bearings)new steels.
skimmed hub carefully filed fingers reamed holes in plates a little
ram jet i did along time ago was a bit burred(plastic) cleaned it up
good to go.
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Old 10-03-2020, 11:33 AM   #11
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

done a bit more today.. although nothing related to the clutch

Got spinning the mainshaft again and yes, the noise is the kicker starter gear not disengaging fully from the starter main shaft gear...

Took the kicker cover out and all seems ok in there, can't really see anything that stands out. According to the manual I have all the spacers and all assembled as is.
Need more investigation as to why not backing away, but then got distracted with something else to fix..more below.

All the kicker out. not much here to explain, is just taking nuts off and pulling it off.





But then...
then got distracted. I want to keep the chain drive in the primary but I don't want the whole oil recirculation thing. So I guess my next option is a primary with an oil bath.
that or regularly lube the chain like you do a final chain drive?
anyway.... I had a look and found a previous owner bodge job. the drain plug was covered in jb weld...
there was a chunk missing out the inner primary, so once you'd put a gasket it would not seal properly.
Done a little ally repair job, but not having a milling machine, made it as flat as it can get filing by hand little by little.
To be honest it's pretty flat, but I might use gasket and sealant all around, or at least the bottom half of the primary just to help with containing the oil inside.



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Old 10-03-2020, 12:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

With the kicker gear, they sometimes require a little more shimming, or the spring behind the dog gear could be tired.

That repair and touch up is spot on!
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Old 10-03-2020, 03:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

sealing gaskets and threads we use yamma bond 4 OR the right stuff gray - its semi hardening and does a great job on dissimilar contact surfaces
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Old 10-03-2020, 03:44 PM   #14
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhysmort View Post
With the kicker gear, they sometimes require a little more shimming, or the spring behind the dog gear could be tired.

That repair and touch up is spot on!
The spring seems alright, need quite a bit of pressure won it to make the gear move back, so guess it has the right tension.
But for sure some shimmig somewhere will be required, but maybe on the kick gear side

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjzjz View Post
sealing gaskets and threads we use yamma bond 4 OR the right stuff gray - its semi hardening and does a great job on dissimilar contact surfaces
I wonder if it's the same I used on my 350 Chevy intake, that stuff was grey and pretty good. Need to check.
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Old 10-03-2020, 07:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

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The spring seems alright, need quite a bit of pressure won it to make the gear move back, so guess it has the right tension.
But for sure some shimmig somewhere will be required, but maybe on the kick gear side



I wonder if it's the same I used on my 350 Chevy intake, that stuff was grey and pretty good. Need to check.
+1 for what Jon said, it's great stuff!

I haven't had it with OEM covers, but the jammer I had on my 40 tranny needed a load of shimming, did like yours is doing non stop.

Glad the spring is okay, getting that dog gear off as I'm sure you'll know can be a real pain in the ass!
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Old 10-03-2020, 08:57 PM   #16
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

May i have a favor? Can you show me your exhaust? What brand is it? A few pics would be great! I want to do a true dual, one without the crossover. I've seen a few for sale but they're usually in poor condition.
Cheers!
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Old 10-04-2020, 10:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

Right... had a look today, it needs shimming as Rhys said.
removed the big washer on the outside of the kicker and put it on the inside, just to make the shaft go further in and it pushes the gear in enough to stop making that noise.
Going to have to make some washers on the lathe and play around see how much I need. pain in the ass being a trial and error thing as no way to know how much is enough.

make a smaller washer for the outside, then make a new one to sit just below the recess on the shaft so the kicker gear doesnt tighten against it and the whole thing stays solid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tomsoftail View Post
May i have a favor? Can you show me your exhaust? What brand is it? A few pics would be great! I want to do a true dual, one without the crossover. I've seen a few for sale but they're usually in poor condition.
Cheers!
Sure, here's a photo of the exhaust that goes to the left side. no idea what brand it is as bought it off a friend.
on this thread here you can also see the brackets I made to fit the exhausts
https://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/...d.php?t=213936

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Old 10-04-2020, 04:26 PM   #18
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

Thanks! With the pandemic still delaying swaps and shows it's been slim pickings for quality used items.
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Old 10-04-2020, 04:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

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Right... had a look today, it needs shimming as Rhys said.
removed the big washer on the outside of the kicker and put it on the inside, just to make the shaft go further in and it pushes the gear in enough to stop making that noise.
Going to have to make some washers on the lathe and play around see how much I need. pain in the ass being a trial and error thing as no way to know how much is enough.

make a smaller washer for the outside, then make a new one to sit just below the recess on the shaft so the kicker gear doesnt tighten against it and the whole thing stays solid.




Sure, here's a photo of the exhaust that goes to the left side. no idea what brand it is as bought it off a friend.
on this thread here you can also see the brackets I made to fit the exhausts
https://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/...d.php?t=213936


Off the top of my head JP, I did the same putting the washer inside, I think I shimmed it then about 4 thou.. give or take and it never caused me issue after that.
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Old 10-04-2020, 05:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: 68 Generator shovel clutch slipping and tranny noise

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Off the top of my head JP, I did the same putting the washer inside, I think I shimmed it then about 4 thou.. give or take and it never caused me issue after that.
thing is the washer that is on the inside is too thick, so once tighten up the whole thing is solid.
need to shave a bit off that washer thickness. but ideally I'd also like the thrust washer on the outside.

So my plan is make the inside washer just thick enough that will still allow for the outside washer.

but I have a plan.put no washers there, put the cover back on, then push on the shaft, and with someone on the other side spinning the main shaft, see how far it has to go in till there's no contact.
then measure the gap between the kicker shaft and the kicker cover external.
once that washer is done I then need to measure the gap between the internal kicker shaft recess and the bushing.

that should work.
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