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Old 09-17-2020, 10:42 PM   #21
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I started to try to fit the races to the flywheels, but there's some pitting that will not cleanup so now I'm waiting on case races, in order to replace them. First time doing that, and I'm not looking forward to it.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:49 PM   #22
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I don't think I posted when I finally finished clearancing the heads and cylinders. This pic gives u an idea of the difference in pushrod angles. I still have to weld and remachine the rockerboxes, but I did the machining first so I have some idea of how much and where exactly I would have to weld.
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Old 09-18-2020, 12:16 AM   #23
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

Sorry I'm ignorant, but what is the second photo in post 22 of? -- I'm stumped.

365 oiling has got to be the ultimate in lubrication!
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Old 09-18-2020, 09:22 AM   #24
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

First... I like your project a lot.

Question about the oiling mods.

Why 360 degree oiling on the pinion?
How will you maintain oil pressure at the rockers when it's leaking through the pinion shaft and crank pin rollers?
Never tried it but will an early XL oil pump adapt with simple mods where the U scavenge pump is located to give a second source of oil pressure? I know the pump drive-breather gear is similar on the U and the early iron head XL.

Do check and adjust breather port timing. The last two U models I did here (1937 and a 41) were about the same. I delayed the timing mark one tooth on the gear and then opened the closing side on the gear close to .100"
Yours may be different but check and adjust as needed.

Your cylinder oil drain mods. Will oil still return through the side of the bore at the same location? Hopefully below the oil ring on the pistons? Reason I ask is because I have seen problems there on some cast replacement pistons, mostly silvolite (KB) brand.
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Old 09-18-2020, 02:43 PM   #25
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

might think about making a sealed cap for the sprocket shaft if your running a belt drive. here's a home made cap and seal going onto slightly modified 38 UL cases...



second pic below will show what was modified on the case half. what can't be seen is two drilled oil passages. one above the race to feed oil into the bearing race and one to drain below and outside of the race. think how a shovel or evo sprocket bearing is lubed and drained.

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Old 09-18-2020, 02:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

Quote:
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Sorry I'm ignorant, but what is the second photo in post 22 of? -- I'm stumped.

365 oiling has got to be the ultimate in lubrication!
tool in the second pic is a bearing race lap tool. you adjust the slotted looking part on it's tapered arbor shaft to expand the OD of the tool. the arbor shaft is piloted by the other bearing race to keep it in alignment. add a little fine grit lapping compound and turn the lap while moving it in and out of the race. what's going on is you more or less wear the race round and free of imperfections. you then select oversize rollers to get the loose fit clearance of the rollers on the shaft and in the race. it looks like this in use...




on a 54 and older big twin you use the same lap and pilot on both case halves...
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Old 09-18-2020, 03:29 PM   #27
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

Thanks a lot! ... And am I then guessing sort of correctly in thinking the smaller tool with the knurled bits to the right of the lapper in #22 is to support and center the lapper's shaft at its far end (not visible in your #27 pics)?

Scott, sorry to go off topic ... it's a sickness with me .... I'm in awe of your balls-out hotrodding project. If I understood it all a little better I'd probably pass out from an excess of awe.
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Old 09-18-2020, 04:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratso View Post
Sorry I'm ignorant, but what is the second photo in post 22 of? -- I'm stumped.
That pic is the big ol' pit in the pinion race in the case. And the Sprocket side is the same. The other pic is the Lap, and there's no amount of lapping that will clean up those races, at least not without them being too big.

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Why 360 degree oiling on the pinion?
How will you maintain oil pressure at the rockers when it's leaking through the pinion shaft and crank pin rollers?
Why not oil the pinion like a '72 and later? Seems like it can only help. Frankly, with the fancy Cala's HP pump, I'm assuming I'll have more than enough oil and pressure. But that I figured I have to wait to verify once it's a running motor. If anything I worry about the Pinion not getting what it needs because it's all going to the top end, but it's hard for me to imagine that being the case. I don't see any reason this won't work just like a '72 oiling system. And even if it that's not the case, it wont be any different than a knuckle or early panhead.
  1. First, the top end will get unregulated pressurized oil via oil pressure switch port on the pump.
  2. Check valve to pinion will open once the top end reaches 1.5psi (according to the manual).
  3. anything else will get dumped into the case via the "max pressure regulating valve".
  4. and then i have Cala's return pump to gather up and move all that extra oil to the tank.


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Do check and adjust breather port timing. The last two U models I did here (1937 and a 41) were about the same. I delayed the timing mark one tooth on the gear and then opened the closing side on the gear close to .100"
Will do, once i get to that point.

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Your cylinder oil drain mods. Will oil still return through the side of the bore at the same location?
Its the stock drain hole in the cylinder, I just welded the bottom\side closed from where the base flange got shaved. And since it's stock 80" shovel stroke 4.25"), it should be fine. CRAP, you just reminded me that I didn't take into account the increase in Deck Height. I'll have to check again and hope I didn't paint myself into a corner.
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Old 09-18-2020, 04:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan r View Post
might think about making a sealed cap for the sprocket shaft if your running a belt drive. here's a home made cap and seal going onto slightly modified 38 UL cases...



second pic below will show what was modified on the case half. what can't be seen is two drilled oil passages. one above the race to feed oil into the bearing race and one to drain below and outside of the race. think how a shovel or evo sprocket bearing is lubed and drained.
I've had good luck with the little colony seal.

Cool concept for the cap and extra oiling, and I can see why that would be helpful\necessary for Timkens. But does your experience tell you that oiling the pre-55 sprocket shaft loose rollers has ever been a weakness? Regardless, my goal is to make no modifications to my cases.
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Old 09-19-2020, 05:20 PM   #30
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratso View Post
Thanks a lot! ... And am I then guessing sort of correctly in thinking the smaller tool with the knurled bits to the right of the lapper in #22 is to support and center the lapper's shaft at its far end (not visible in your #27 pics)?

Scott, sorry to go off topic ... it's a sickness with me .... I'm in awe of your balls-out hotrodding project. If I understood it all a little better I'd probably pass out from an excess of awe.
The smaller part shown is used to align the lap tool yes. That part with the knurled parts is what is used when the case has Timken tapered roller type bearings. The tool is inside the Timkens that are installed into the left case half. The loose roller sprocket shaft type engines, 54 and older use a solid pilot tool that has a very slight taper the goes directly in the race as a pilot. Like so...
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Old 09-19-2020, 05:33 PM   #31
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

Ah now I (think I) get it. Thanks again.
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Old 09-19-2020, 06:14 PM   #32
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

Scott
I think your setting your self up for an oiling problem.

Here is why I feel this way. On the U model engines that get a better than oem pump is a good thing. Your aftermarket pump may produce more pressure and flow, I can't say because I never used one of that brand. On any other normal U lower end that has 360 degree pinion oiling will promote a longer life and cooler running because you are moving more oil. There is no need to worry what the pressure ends up at, loose rollers only need flow. That extra flow will then sling around and yes, provide more oil for everything else that's slip sliding and spinning. There is only one place in a U model that is fed pressure (flow) and that's the pinion. Every other part big or small gets splashed with oil that is first pushed through the rod rollers.

Going with a shovel top as you know opens up a whole new can of worms. All engines that have rocker shafts Knuck and newer use full pump pressure to lube them. Lets say your pump is producing 12 PSI, you can expect (and hope) there is 12 PSI pressure of oil floating the rockers on the shafts, rockers ride on oil pressure film. Low to no oil pressure will let the rocker bushings contact the shafts and wear at an alarming rate.

Knuck, Pan and early Shovels with side oiler pinion shafts run full pressure to the pinion shaft and the rockers from a single output source from the pump. They only push oil through the pinion shaft once for a few degrees of crankshaft rotation. Lets say it lubes 10 degrees and is blocked the other 350 degrees of rotation. Oil pressure can mostly be maintained with a leak of pressure for 10 degrees of every rotation. The rockers (tappets too on Pan and up) see a slight pulse or drop of pressure for that 10 degrees of rotation. The top end is mostly maintaining pressure and will survive till the pinion bushing gets worn and the large bushing clearance won't hold pressure. 73 and later big twin pumps have two oil output passages. One feeds the top end and the other feeds the pinion. The pressure regulator plunger rises pushing on a spring and it then opens a passage to relive over pressure. The main pressure portion below that relief is where the oil is coming from to pressure lube hydraulic tappets and rockers. Once that relief is at full pressure and is lubing the top, the relief of over pressure is what then gets pushed through the end oiling pinion shaft. Those era engines will not oil the end oiling shaft... rod rollers, if the pump for whatever reason can't build full pressure. More or less on a hot engine that idles slow will not be end oiling the rod rollers. As scary as that sounds, remember top end oil is still draining back and slinging around lubing everything.

With your engine that will have rockers that need full pressure... The main amount will be flowing un restrained through the rod rollers. Oil flow from your pump will seek the path of least resistance, through the rod rollers. Fluid or electricity will always seek the path of least resistance, that's just how mother nature works, can't change that.

If it was me, I would go back to a side oiling system. It would lube the same as a Knuck or newer up to 73. 360 degree pinion oiling is good on a U model running the stock flatheads. I have used 4 vane pump conversion kits on U models with 360 degree oiling and yes, they run a bit cooler and move more oil.

What I think you see as a pressure relief that opens at 1.5 PSI is the check ball that prevents sumping on a non running engine, same can be found in all big twins. There is also a relief check ball with a much stiffer spring in your pressure pump.

Hope I described what I see as a potential problem without confusion.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:02 AM   #33
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Hope I described what I see as a potential problem without confusion.
Very detailed, thank you. You've probably forgotten more about this than I will know. And we're agreed on all accounts, except that it sounds like I'm more inclined to believe this will work well. Call it blind optimism.

You're concern is the top end won't get enough oil, because it's just pumping through the crank, correct? And if the pinion/crank passage was a big 3/8" tube, then I'd absolutely agree with you. My plan is/was to run an oil pressure gauge on one of the rocker nuts at least initially, so I can see what's going on; especially since the pump is a bit of an unknown.

And at this point, if after I run the engine it looks like it's going to be a problem, I'd probably first explore ways to change things in the pump; like spring pressure on the check valve. But I'm not going to worry about that unless it appears as though it's going to be a problem.

So are we in agreement that in the current config, if I measure adequate oil pressure at the rocker arms, then I can assume that both the pinion and heads are getting at least their fair share?
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:58 AM   #34
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Very detailed, thank you. You've probably forgotten more about this than I will know. And we're agreed on all accounts, except that it sounds like I'm more inclined to believe this will work well. Call it blind optimism.

You're concern is the top end won't get enough oil, because it's just pumping through the crank, correct? And if the pinion/crank passage was a big 3/8" tube, then I'd absolutely agree with you. My plan is/was to run an oil pressure gauge on one of the rocker nuts at least initially, so I can see what's going on; especially since the pump is a bit of an unknown.

And at this point, if after I run the engine it looks like it's going to be a problem, I'd probably first explore ways to change things in the pump; like spring pressure on the check valve. But I'm not going to worry about that unless it appears as though it's going to be a problem.

So are we in agreement that in the current config, if I measure adequate oil pressure at the rocker arms, then I can assume that both the pinion and heads are getting at least their fair share?
Glad to hear your planning to check pressure at the rocker shafts when completed if only temporarily. I can see how you think pressure will be up enough because of the passage size. The small hole drilled in the side of the pinion will be the restriction. The passages in the cam cover, bushing, length wise of the pinion, the wheel and the crank pin all have a larger diameter. Rod rollers will never contain flow to build pressure. I only hope the pump has the capacity to produce enough flow and therefore pressure to overcome a leak the size of that side hole in the shaft. You will know after a ride long and fast enough for the oil to come up to full operating temperature. Yes, I'm suspect that the rockers will be running with low pressure. Your pinion will see more that it ever did when set up as OEM. I would almost be more suspect of having to much oil in the lower end and overwhelming the scavenge system. You are building up the scraper to adjust for a closer clearance to the smaller diameter flywheels right?

Thank you for the kind words but I will never claim to be an expert or know it all, I'm a million miles from it really. Many years of screwing up has taught me a few things to forever be suspect, even with all new and un proven parts going into a stock rebuild. I have seen to many things go sideways when on paper it should have worked perfectly. The proof is when it's up and has been running for a while. Best of luck on your project and please keep all of us informed with updates as you go. I do hope all is well when completed. I do greatly enjoy to see people do things and go their own way and not try to copy someone who did something back in the day, whatever that means.

Last edited by dan r; 09-21-2020 at 11:08 AM. Reason: i'm old and forget things
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

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Your pinion will see more that it ever did when set up as OEM. I would almost be more suspect of having to much oil in the lower end and overwhelming the scavenge system. You are building up the scraper to adjust for a closer clearance to the smaller diameter flywheels right?
  1. That's why I got Cala's scavenger pump upgrade too. it's a spacer and new set of wider gears.
  2. As far as flywheel size, Are thinking of how that needs to be done on OHV cases when stroking with the smaller U flywheels? I'm just using stock cases, and the flywheels are stock U diameter. That said, the left wheel is narrower, but I wasn't going to worry about that.
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Thank you for the kind words but I will never claim to be an expert or know it all, I'm a million miles from it really. I do hope all is well when completed.
Don't sell yourself short. I still squish a dollop of silicone in the grooves of a 4-speed Main Drive Gear, ala Horse Magazine article.

Anyways, thanks for the input, and i hope you stay tuned. I may need your sage advice down the road.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:51 PM   #36
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

Very cool project! I just read through the thread a couple times to try to get it all!
Question: what's the deal with the gerotor pump? I've only even seen the factory vane pump (or the four vane mod that Freibus sells). Where did it come from? Is it a set of gears that replaces the vanes, or a whole new pump? It looks like a great improvement to me.
I have lotsa other questions, but I'll stop here for now...
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:54 PM   #37
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Very cool project! I just read through the thread a couple times to try to get it all!
Question: what's the deal with the gerotor pump? I've only even seen the factory vane pump (or the four vane mod that Freibus sells). Where did it come from? Is it a set of gears that replaces the vanes, or a whole new pump? It looks like a great improvement to me.
I have lotsa other questions, but I'll stop here for now...
I considered the 4-vane. I get the concept but couldn't find real data about how much more oil it moved, if any. So I was still really concerned about feeding the top end. Then I read all the stuff that guy did with a sporty pump, but I didn't love the idea of that. Then I found http://calas-hp.se/english.php
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Old 09-29-2020, 10:36 PM   #38
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

An earlier flatty bottom/ohv top. Three valves per cylinder, looks like.
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:59 AM   #39
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Default Re: 80" Super Magnum motor build

That Amal carb doesn't look very big.

Is that a tach drive out of the mag?

Nice short exhaust stacks, too.
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Old 09-30-2020, 05:53 AM   #40
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An earlier flatty bottom/ohv top. Three valves per cylinder, looks like.
That was a BF bike at some point. What makes you say 3V? I see four pushrods, and there's nothing making me believe one rocker is running two poppets.
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