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Old 04-17-2020, 10:26 PM   #41
Ratso
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Dang. The site makes such mighty claims for its product that I would def have dismissed it as bogus. That's pretty wonderful stuff, then.

Joe, what would you absolutely *not* use it for?

Thanks for enlightening me.
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Old 04-17-2020, 11:48 PM   #42
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Most of what is claimed can be done. My only fail with it was trying to piece a CAT oil pan that had multiple cracks were a rock almost punched a hole in. Kept losing the solder out of the cracks because of the amount of heat in the pan. I would blame my technique for that fail. It was one of my first attempts, now I believe I would have a better result. Contractor wanted a new pan anyway.
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:07 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratso View Post
This isn't exactly a brazing/bronzing matter, but it does involve low-temp metal joining so I hope it's not a completely deplorable digression.

I saw a site advertising "Easy Melt Welding Rods." No expensive specialized equipment. No toxic fumes. No parent-metal distortion (said to work at about 650C, a.k.a. 1200F). Chiefly for use with aluminum, but will handily "braze" most other nonferrous metals.

Unlike Lumiweld and similar products, the Easy Melt doesn't appear to require meticulous preparation (the ad also says, more or less). You get 10 flux-coated, flux-core rods, 8" x 2mm, for about $26.

Does this product ring a bell with anybody? Is it snake oil/hogwash, or a useful & trustable thing? Is it Lumiweld by another name?

If anybody wants a link to the site, and you broke your Google, PM me. But I think I've said everything that the site says.

Thanks, as ever, for youall's opinions and experiences.

James rats

[Edit: If it's not obvious from the verbiage above, these sticks are meant to be used with an O/A torch.]
We tried a demo of these at our shop. It works almost like silver solder. There is basically no way to control the puddle, but it does work pretty well. It was stronger than expected but was not nearly as stong as welds. We only had a few 1/16" sticks to try but we used it on stainless and aluminum. I would say for crafts or welds that would not cost your life if they broke it would be a good option for someone who doesn't have a welder.

On a side note. I have done a ton of silicon bronze tig brazing and welding and I would NOT put my life on one of those welds when we have great filler rod compounds that have ridiculously high tensile strength. Brazing will always be weaker than a weld. If i were to build a custom frame I would do a small er70 root pass with tig first and lay a fat silicon bronze weld over it for the pretty gold weld that we all like to see. That way i know i can hit train tracks and my front end wont break off and kill me. Wrecking bikes sucks, most of us have dealt with it and would do everything we could to avoid it happening again. Well aside from not riding anymore.
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Old 04-30-2020, 04:18 AM   #44
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Hi perhaps i did not read all the comments that good so i might come up with some information That was allready mentioned. Brass welding works great on overlapping joints and self bearring constructions, so older pipe base frames with casted connexions are very suitable to weld this way , TIG welding would be my last choice when welding a pipe based motorcycle frame because the enormous amount of heat that will be put in that will cause the molecules to shake up very rapidly and when they are cooled down the wrong way they will stay in this order causing a weak point next to the weld, and all that offcourse combined with the vibrations of our well balanced engines. MAG welding reduces that risk but even then you have to construct in a smart way, some times spotweldings are even stronger. There is a formula that calculates based on the carbon equivalent and body mass of the construction wether to pre-heat or not.
In the early 90’s there was an explosion of custom shops in the netherlands where you could talk through your design wishes and engine brand and choice and collect the bike 3 weeks later, another three weeks later you could return to get your frame fixed, really nothing more than a bunch of pipes shitted together on a jig.
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Old 04-30-2020, 06:22 AM   #45
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

I do not agree...

I have found that TIG welding is very akin to brazing, ie pushing along a small pool of melted steel while adding fresh rod material in the pool.

Generated heat is quite localised, so probably a touch better than brazing on that front...

Obviously, one can set the amps too high and make holes everywhere, but that's not welding, that's trashing...

Any kind of welding, brazing or soldering do require some heat and is likely to alter/change the base metal somewhat, but the molecular changes won't turn strong steel into say lead putty ; O )

Patrick
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Old 04-30-2020, 06:59 AM   #46
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

i don’t disagree you ,But in my believe the Heat Affected Zone is always a bit more present with tig welding, i think ignorance is a bliss when it comes to customizing...to be clear , i did not mean to offend anyone by the ignorance remark.
But lets do a test , take a flat plate of let’s say 5 mm and weld a round tube 30 and thicknes 2 to it, test is it by deforming it in whatever way , it will always crack on the tube side next to the weld! Because when heating up some molecules make bonds with others and these kristalls change direction, when cooling down these kristalls reorder again in a better direction, but the section of the pipe next to the weld is to small an looses the heat to fast to reorder the kristalls...thats the weak spot. Tig generates by far the most heat and more concentrated so the different structures under the surface are more sufficient.

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Old 04-30-2020, 10:02 AM   #47
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

You are correct in saying in your suggested test that the fail will occur on the tube side of the weld. The reason though is not just haz related the weld will be a greater cross section, as well as the plate will. Also it is common to weld with ER70S-6 with a yield of 65500 Vs 60000 for the tube and weld tensile of 78000 Vs 70000 for tube. These differences are the larger contribution to said failure.

EDIT: I'm using A513 DOM tube as reference for the numbers ERW would be slightly weaker, and if you are talking about A53 black pipe that is even lower 45000 tensile and 35000 yield.
Disclaimer: I knew that there are both tensile and yield differences but I did have to look up the numbers.
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Old 04-30-2020, 05:38 PM   #48
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Watertight statement Joe, i think we are on the same page here when we suggest a decent knowledge base for customizing the main structure of a bike is vital.
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Old 05-01-2020, 03:50 AM   #49
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Hi,

As a general statement, I would say any frame is not the 1st portal of safety on any bikes... It is suspended in air via suspensions and tyres and it would take years of continuous use to fatigue it to the point the engine vibrations and the weight of the bike overcome the strength of whatever good or bad welds hold it together...

In a crash, you can only trust your clothes to save your skin since you'll be airborne way before one, the front wheel buckles, two, the forks bend and three, whatever energy is left cracks the frame bad welds...

Al this to say I worry more about the state of my tyres than the state of my frames!!!!!!!!!!

I had a spl chrome moly frame made for my Harley KHK around 1989... All bronze welded, not one socket/tube junction, it's all butt brazed. Due to my design, no tubes underneath the engine, the frame cooled down a touch tight and it has to be ever so slightly stretched to fit the engine in...

I rode this frame on the road every year since in various guises till I decided to build a Bonneville Salt Flats bike with it as a basis... Went 121.775mph on a rutted salt track... Exactly 1mn between standing start and 2.25 mile marker.

I've never had it checked since it was made and I trust it implicitly!!!

Cheers from Patrick
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Old 05-02-2020, 09:51 AM   #50
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

I'm just a young guy, but with no wheel failures or collisions, I have witnessed in person 2 frame failures at raked necks, poor welding. I've also seen a few of the left vertical down tube crack in two on swing arm FL frames that were pre-gusset. On one of my Shovel stroker hot rods the right un-gusset side broke in two at the tube at the weld to the forging. Most of these frames I did post failure repaired. Most with 3/32'' 7018, all vertical welds done up. Both necks had been down handed with ?? {6011 at best} with a buzz box by welders of little experience.
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Old 12-04-2020, 11:45 PM   #51
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

This question cluster may be my dumbest yet, the one that earns me a beating.

As a broad generality, aluminum melts at 1200+F, and mild steel at 2500, 2600F, correct? So, when TIGging aluminum, what kind of temperature is present at the root (? The weld area is what I mean.)

Relatedly (I trust): Some of you can and do weld aluminum with oxyacetylene, right? Can a torch's flame be brought to a low enough temp for decent control? How?

I once saw a photo of an alloy primary case that had been repaired w/a torch in the maybe 1930s-40s. The repair looked like a crowd of aluminum-digesting crows had shit all over the case. This was on a race bike, so my assumption was that that represented about the best that could be done at the time when the tool was a torch and the victim was aluminum. Would some welding historian give me their opinion? Like, was alu work really difficult at the time?

Thanks, yall, I hope there is some sense to be found in these questions.
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Old 12-05-2020, 03:16 AM   #52
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

The vast majority of WWII aluminum welding was done with OA as "Heliarc" (1941) had just been invented.

The aluminum chapter starts on page 184 but the whole (1918) book is interesting. Labor was cheap and the example castings were often repaired by sand casting repair parts (in that era many local machine shops had their own small foundries, the Clean Air Act closed the one local to me) then welding them in, including welding in combustion chamber sections then the outer water jacket! Check out the shattered crankcase repairs. They weren't blended for cosmetics at the time since that didn't matter on utilitarian repairs and leaving welds unmolested added strength

https://archive.org/details/oxyacety.../n201/mode/2up

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Old 12-05-2020, 03:57 AM   #53
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Quote:
Originally Posted by farmall View Post
The vast majority of WWII aluminum welding was done with OA as "Heliarc" (1941) had just been invented.

The aluminum chapter starts on page 184 but the whole (1918) book is interesting. Labor was cheap and the example castings were often repaired by sand casting repair parts (in that era many local machine shops had their own small foundries, the Clean Air Act closed the one local to me) then welding them in, including welding in combustion chamber sections then the outer water jacket! Check out the shattered crankcase repairs. They weren't blended for cosmetics at the time since that didn't matter on utilitarian repairs and leaving welds unmolested added strength

https://archive.org/details/oxyacety.../n201/mode/2up
Thanks Farm, super interesting!
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Old 12-05-2020, 04:18 PM   #54
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Yeah, thanks farm boy. But about those root temperatures (TIG and, for that matter, MIG)? Again, I'm not certain I'm using "root" correctly: I mean the temp at (and very near) the point where arc meets workpiece.

I'll apologize and then shut up if the answers are right there in the archive.org doc.

Edit: Holy cow, that archived book is a great resource. Thanks! My hat's off to Mr. Samuel Wylie Miller, the author, for plainspoken clarity. I'd never have guessed that he wrote it more than a century ago. Good reading, not a word wasted. Makes me wonder if the link ought to be added to the JJ tech archives.

The book even partly slightly almost answers my specific questions ...
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Old 12-05-2020, 06:47 PM   #55
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Those metal temps would be in modern welding literature from Lincoln or Miller (they have training materials on their site). Remember because they're more localized than a torch they actually induce less heat in the metal. Of course the arc temp will be the same but the amount of heat conveyed to the work is determined (roughly) by the amp setting of the machine and by any other settings on advanced power supplies. Arc behavior is the subject of intense study mostly above my need to know other than looking up correct settings for a job, testing on scrap (always test on comparable scrap) to validate then welding. Find some current textbooks to know more as modern (especially TIG) machines are impressively sophisticated.

https://www.millerwelds.com/-/media/...s/gtawbook.pdf

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/...eratures.7500/
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Old 12-05-2020, 08:12 PM   #56
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Those shiny aluminum tanker trucks you see on the highway have up to recently all been welded with an oxy-acetylene torch.
You control the heat through the nozzle size and mixture. Yes it is true that the correct flame burns at the same temp for large and small nozzles the amount of heat on the workpiece determines whether a metal melts or not.
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Old 12-06-2020, 06:26 AM   #57
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Hi all,

I've been lucky to know an old wizard when I was young.... From about 1928, he used to modify alloy crankcases to add to them towers for OHC drives... I've never seen him weld alloy, but I saw the results, outstanding.

The only thing he told me was to set the torch with just enough oxygen to burn the acethylene correctly so as not to allow unburned oxygen in the melt...

I think all the oldtimer welders would know from well kept secret tricks when the alloy is about to totally melt and collapse, but I'm not privvy to the tricks!!!

Some involve spitting on the weld and observe the "bounciness" of the boiling spit.

These days, we have temperature color strips but how useful are they when welding alloy?

By the way, I have still to try my TIG welder in AC mode and test it on alloys...

One day, one day...

Patrick
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Old 12-06-2020, 07:11 PM   #58
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

When gas welding aluminum you never actually see the molten puddle.It is under a layer of flux and aluminum oxide. It is a buttery mess and only experience will really tell you when and where to stick in your rod.
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Old 12-06-2020, 11:06 PM   #59
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

> The only thing he told me was to set the torch with just enough oxygen to burn
> the acethylene correctly so as not to allow unburned oxygen in the melt...

Huh. If I didn't misunderstand it, the book (from 1916, I believe) accessible through Farmall's archive link above (https://archive.org/details/oxyacety.../n201/mode/2up) says some guys enrich the oxy/acy mixture like that, but it was no longer necessary thanks to improvements in torches and metering setups. Everybody's got a (probably perfectly valid) opinion!

I had forgot that, at least in effect, smaller torchtip = less heat. Thankyou V.W.
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