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Old 03-30-2016, 06:06 PM   #21
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Here is a suggestion. Pull your trans and clean and carefully inspect it, paying close attention to the bearings, as there is plenty of debris in it now.
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Old 03-30-2016, 06:30 PM   #22
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbetty View Post
Forgive me but I feel like this is reaching. He had a failure because he used a compromised part when he rebuilt. If his oil was the culprit I find it very hard to believe the damage would be isolated to just one part of the transmission. It's much more likely that the hardening on the shaft deteriorated at the kicker gear thus allowing a higher degree of thermal expansion where it rides.

Perhaps the heavy oil accelerated the failure if clearances between the gear and the shaft closed up and the oil was unable to wick itself into the bushing. But I cannot see how it would be the cause of this problem in the first place.
OP said in 1st post trans was rebuilt by a reparable builder. But did mention his use of a very heavy oil, a oil that would not flow easily into a close tolerance bushing. On his second try he made no mention of flushing the trans. This leads to the question how much of the heavy oil remained to contaminate the new oil. Further on both occasions the bushing was loosened in the gear and tight on the shaft, since bronze when heated and cooled shrinks this leads me to believe that the lack of oil getting into the bushing was the possible cause. As before you and some others want to be told of some special problem and do not really want to hear other solutions. Brake pedal ratio comes to mind.
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Old 03-31-2016, 09:40 AM   #23
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
On his second try he made no mention of flushing the trans.
you are correct, i did not mention this, but it was done. Complete flush until nothing but perfectly clean solvent.

Quote:
Further on both occasions the bushing was loosened in the gear and tight on the shaft
you are partially correct, bushing was loose in gear both times.
bushing was tight on shaft first time, but NOT tight on the shaft the second time. It still slid freely (albeit sloppily from the excess wear). I'm still leaning toward the key grabbing the end of the bushing at this point.


Joe49> what oil are you recommending?
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Old 03-31-2016, 11:00 AM   #24
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

A friend just painted his sportster motor he cleaned heads with solvent.
started bike and both valves in rear cylinder seized (breaking of a guide and valve head)
in less than 2 minutes .
Bike had new unprimed oil lines and tank.(and he forgot to pre lube head after solvent clean)
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Old 03-31-2016, 11:07 AM   #25
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe49 View Post
As before you and some others want to be told of some special problem and do not really want to hear other solutions. Brake pedal ratio comes to mind.
Come on Joe, this is civil discourse, not tit for tat. I suggest not even bothering replying if you're just going to tell us we're all wrong. There was more to my brake pedal situation than lever ratio.
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by image1 View Post
you are correct, i did not mention this, but it was done. Complete flush until nothing but perfectly clean solvent.



you are partially correct, bushing was loose in gear both times.
bushing was tight on shaft first time, but NOT tight on the shaft the second time. It still slid freely (albeit sloppily from the excess wear). I'm still leaning toward the key grabbing the end of the bushing at this point.


Joe49> what oil are you recommending?
Did you polish the shaft the 1st go around?

It is not likely the bushing was in contact with the key before damage. As this would require the bushing to be out of the gear bore and would have likely stopped it engaging to the rachet gear on the main shaft for kick starting.

Did you lube the bushing during assembly?

FM say's same straight grade as the engine for the temp range. I cheat also and run 90 gear oil, which is about the same as 60 wt motor oil.
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbetty View Post
Come on Joe, this is civil discourse, not tit for tat. I suggest not even bothering replying if you're just going to tell us we're all wrong. There was more to my brake pedal situation than lever ratio.
What I'm getting at is over looking many times the simple solutions, thinking there is some witchcraft going on, which just is not the case. To quote,"we are all entitled to our opinion, but not our own facts.
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:29 PM   #28
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
Did you polish the shaft the 1st go around?
no. probably should have.

Quote:
would have likely stopped it engaging to the rachet gear on the main shaft for kick starting.
which is exactly what it did.

Quote:
Did you lube the bushing during assembly?
no. will hit it with some assembly lube next time.

Quote:
I cheat also and run 90 gear oil, which is about the same as 60 wt motor oil.
ok
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:40 PM   #29
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Credit goes to the original poster in the HD forums.

GL5 Gear Oil - Is It Safe To Use In the Sporty? - ANSWERED
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GL5 Gear Oil - Is It Safe To Use In the Sporty? - ANSWERED
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cHarley's AvatarcHarley , 09-03-2012 06:01 PM
FIRST - THIS IS NOT AN OIL DEBATE THREAD
If you want to use Motor Oil, ATF, or cat **** in your gearbox knock yourself out.
If you have a Big Twin, this isn't really applicable to you.

There has been much discussion and debate in the past few years over the use of GL5 Gear Oil in the Sportster Primary/Tranny. This debate centers around warnings that GL5 Gear Oil is corrosive and that it can damage what are known a "yellow" metal parts. Unlike the Big Twins, our Sportsters have a shared primary/tranny and that means that the stator (copper) and clutch spring plate (brass rivets) can be damaged if a corrosive lubricant is used in our application.

The question over the safety of GL5 has been hard to nail down because many of the manufactures will give out conflicting information depending on who you talk to, even within the same company.

WHY is this such a hard question for the oil companies to answer with factual data and WHY is it so hard to find a real answer to the question? The answer is really pretty simple.

Anyone who has spent time studying oil knows about the myriad of various ratings that are applicable for any particular lubricant, from JASO, CF, MIL, etc. The number of different tests that can be done on oil run well into the hundreds, so oil testing by the manufacturer is typically limited to those tests that are applicable to the oils intended use.

So why is it so difficult to get answers to the GL5 corrosive question? It's rather quite simple. Because GL5 is made for use in hypoid gearboxes which by nature don't contain yellow metals, so most manufactures don't perform the standard ASTM D-130 corrosive test on GL5 lubricants.

After quite a bit of digging, it turns out that spAmsoil has actually done ASTM D-130 testing on a number of common/popular GL-5 Gear Oils.

ASTM D-130 ratings fall on a scale going from 1A (least corrosive) to 4C (most corrosive) From a corrosive standpoint, an oil with a 1A or 1B rating is considered safe.

ASTM D-130 ASTM D-4048 FTM-5309 "Detection of Copper Corrosion from Petroleum Products by the Copper Strip Tarnish Test"
A variety of hydrocarbon products including oils, hydraulic fluids, fuel, solvents, etc., can be tested for corrosivity to copper by use of this test. It is limited to products with Ried Vapor pressure no greater than 18 psi (124 kPa). A polished copper strip is immersed in the fluid and heated for a specified time and temperature after which the corrosion is rated by visual comparison to the ASTM Copper Strip Corrosion Standards. The most typical test run is for 24 hours @ 100C. However, time and temperature can vary according to product type and specification. Results are reported as a number followed by a letter according to the following scheme:

1a slight tarnish a light orange, almost the same as a freshly polished strip
1b dark orange
2a moderate tarnish a claret red
2b lavender
2c multi colored with lavender blue or silver, or both, overlaid on claret red
2d silvery
2e brassy or gold
3a dark tarnish a magenta overcast on brassy strip
3b multi colored with red and green showing (peacock), but no gray
4a corrosion a transparent black, dark gray or brown with peacock green barley showing
4b graphite or lusterless black
4c glossy or jet black

(The ASTM Copper Strip Corrosion Standard is a color reproduction of strips which have the above description.)

The following is the latest product list I could find that has undergone ASTM D-130 testing.

SAFE GL-5 Oils
Amsoil M/T Fluid MTF..5W-30.............. 1A Light Orange
Red Line MT-90.......75W-90 GL4......... 1A Light Orange
Amsoil Long Life FGR 75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Amsoil Severe Gr SVG 75W-90 GL5....... 1B Dark Orange
Amsoil MT & Gear MTG 75W-90 GL4...... 1B Dark Orange
Mobil 1 Synthetic....75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Castrol Hypoy C......80W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Castrol SYNTEC.......75W-90 GL5........ 1B Dark Orange
Citgo Citgear Std XD 75W-90 GL4........ 1B Dark Orange
GM Synthetic Axle....75W-90 GL5........ 1B Dark Orange
Pennzoil Gearplus....80W-90 GL5.......... 1B Dark Orange
Pennzoil Synthetic...75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Red Line NS Gear Oil 75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Red Line 75W90 GL-5..75W-90 GL5....... 1B Dark Orange
Torco SGO Syn G LS....75W-90 GL5...... 1B Dark Orange
Valvoline High Perf..80W-90 GL5........... 1B Dark Orange
Valvoline SynPower...75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange

MARGINAL GL-5 Oils
Delo Gear Lubric ESI 80W-90 GL5.......... 2A Claret Red
Delo Trans Fluid ESI 50W..................... 2A Claret Red

UNSAFE GL-5 Oils
Royal Purple MaxGear 75W-90 GL5......... 4A Trans Black
Mopar Syn LS additive..75W-90 GL5....... 4A Trans Black
Lucas 75/90 Synthetic75W-90 GL5......... 4B Graphite Blk
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Old 03-31-2016, 01:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Point is our older setups have yellow metal. ^^^

Not sayin this is your problem Joel, just trying to help
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Old 03-31-2016, 03:31 PM   #31
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by image1 View Post
will hit it with some assembly lube next time.
Not all but some assembly lubes have abrasives in them. Better to use trans oil.
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Old 04-01-2016, 04:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

One other thought do you have the oil deflector in there?
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:40 AM   #33
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
One other thought do you have the oil deflector in there?
yep!
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:17 AM   #34
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

got everything cleaned out.
New Baker gears showed up yesterday.
Started playing with everything again.
Inner ratchet gear fits/slides nicely

...until you put the spring behind it. The spring seems to be putting some side load on the gear. Not a lot, but it doesn't slide as freely as it does without the spring. Going to go ahead and swap out the spring for a new one and see if that helps. Everything else seems to be in good order, but i'm not gonna try anything until i have that new spring.
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

the timing of the kicker ratchet to your new kicker gear has to be so it unattaches it from the gear or it will do it again

i have seen the end spud on the main shaft bent from a stroker extra long kicker or a 350 pound guy with an attitude - did you put a dial on it and turn it .001 to maybe .002 more then that it wants to wear quickly seen them .010
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
the timing of the kicker ratchet to your new kicker gear has to be so it unattaches it from the gear or it will do it again

i have seen the end spud on the main shaft bent from a stroker extra long kicker or a 350 pound guy with an attitude - did you put a dial on it and turn it .001 to maybe .002 more then that it wants to wear quickly seen them .010
not sure if i understand your questions, but...

i am confident kicker was indexed correctly the second go around. Have not assembled anything with the new parts yet...

i have a standard length kicker, and weight 175 lbs, so i highly doubt that's the issue.

i put a dial indicator on the main shaft, .0015 at most
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Old 04-08-2016, 07:37 AM   #37
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

picked up a new OE spring last night, feels much better. Will continue with assembly this weekend and see how it goes.


since the great oil debate has already come up.... anybody know anything/have experience with http://www.schaefferoil.com/??? Local place has been pushing this stuff on me for over a year....
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:34 AM   #38
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

all sorted. Decided to go ahead and replace main shaft to eliminate all questions. New Andrews shaft installed. All is well in the universe. 90+ miles yesterday.
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Old 04-27-2016, 04:50 PM   #39
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

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all sorted. Decided to go ahead and replace main shaft to eliminate all questions. New Andrews shaft installed. All is well in the universe. 90+ miles yesterday.
all sorted.--<<<<<< that does not help the guys who cant just change stuff and a main shaft requires the gear box to be empty to replace

did you dead center it ( main shaft ) and see if it was in fact out ???????
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Old 04-28-2016, 08:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
that does not help the guys who cant just change stuff and a main shaft requires the gear box to be empty to replace
i hear ya... I'm pretty certain the cause of the problem was the woodruff key protruding a bit and snagging the bush on the ratchet gear. I also think the spring being tweaked was not helping the situation.

Quote:
did you dead center it ( main shaft ) and see if it was in fact out ???????
i put a dial indicator on it, and it read .0015, which i would have called good enough.

The deciding factor for changing the shaft was the threads holding on the ratchet gears. They got boogered up trying to remove the very first set that went bad, and with so many variables, and the threads being rough, i just made the decision to KNOW i had good parts.
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