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Old 03-28-2016, 09:53 AM   #1
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Default 4 speed kicker gear issue

Having a weird kicker issue with my ratchet top.

trans was fully rebuilt (by a reputable shop) before any of these issues.

i had to remove kicker cover for something or other this winter, and when i re-installed i *think* i indexed it wrong. Kicker would grab and swing down while running (bigger issue than just the return spring). Dissassembled everything, and gears were all pretty tore up. Bushing in ratchet gear no longer was seated in gear, but rather stuck to main shaft (not seized). I was able to get the bush off without heat or cutting, but it did NOT just slide off.

So, i decided that i would just buy the Baker gears and forego any future kicker problems.

Installed new Baker gears, and made sure everything was properly indexed and working correctly. Fired up the bike, took a couple rips around the block, few other starts as i did some tuning and got lights working.

Next day, i went to start the bike up, and after the 2 prime kicks, i had NOTHING. Not even trying to engage... So i pulled everything back apart to find some nice gold oil again. The bushing in the ratchet gear had walked outward toward cover enough that it would not allow the rachet gears to engage each other.

What would cause this??? My thinking at this point is that it has to be an issue with the shaft (brand new before this fiasco...) My other thought would be the key protruding just a tiny bit and grabbing the bushing (though i don't think this is the case, as i checked/played with this several times before i put the cover on to make sure it was seating/releasing correctly. There was no bind/tight spots with bushing on shaft.

Plan to call Baker this afternoon and pick their brains as well, just wondered if anyone here has had a similar issue?

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Old 03-28-2016, 11:12 AM   #2
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

You know those kicker bushings are usually tight with the asian gears - when mine failed it did the same thing - kicker dove when the bike was running. But in my case the bushing had seized to the shaft, so I replaced with baker gears and a new mainshaft and it's been awesome ever since....

I'm wagering a bad fit somewhere - either the bushing to the mainshaft or the actual interference fit of the bushing within the gear. Perhaps the bushing is heating up and sticking to the shaft, and then in turn spun inside the gear. Does the mainshaft show any evidence of heat etc. where the gear rides?

If it was me I'd probably set up the gear in a vice and see how easy it is to press the bushing out - if the interference fit is soft it's probably no good. Then I'd check clearances on the shaft. If you're reusing the same mainshaft after that first failure you may have compromised the gear from the get go.

I've heard that while the baker gears are best, they still occasionally break. Baker stands behind them no questions asked though.

Bad luck man!
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:51 AM   #3
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

to me the gear is not disengaging and instead its being held and the shaft is spinning inside of it the entire time running - reason its shredded

it is supposed to be spinning with the shaft not held still and the shaft spinning - your install may - may have been a miss step

picture up all the pieces that you install in the order you installed them the guys will pick it right out if something was in era
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

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Originally Posted by Blackbetty View Post

I've heard that while the baker gears are best, they still occasionally break. Baker stands behind them no questions asked though.

Bad luck man!
I broke a Baker gear in half when my Shovel kicked back. Do you just send them the busted gear with a return address?
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
But in my case the bushing had seized to the shaft
mine was about 3 miles from seizing to shaft, it took some work to get it off.

Quote:
Perhaps the bushing is heating up and sticking to the shaft, and then in turn spun inside the gear. Does the mainshaft show any evidence of heat etc. where the gear rides?
that's kind of what i'm thinking.

Quote:
If you're reusing the same mainshaft after that first failure you may have compromised the gear from the get go.
which kind of goes hand in hand with this... yes, same mainshaft. Thinking maybe the main shaft got fucked the first go around? I'll snap a pic of the shaft when i get to the shop tonight. There are some signs of wear there, but I didn't think it was anything that looked out of the norm.

Quote:
it is supposed to be spinning with the shaft not held still and the shaft spinning
huh?! the bushing press fits into the gear, and slip fits the shaft...

Quote:
picture up all the pieces that you install in the order you installed them the guys will pick it right out if something was in era
its possible that i did something wrong, but i'm 99% sure everything is installed correctly....

Spring> ratchet gear with bush> key> outer ratchet gear> lock tab washer> nut> check that key isn't protruding> check engagement of ratchet gears> check bushing sliding on shaft> spin> check all again> spin> check all again> spin check all again> torque to 42 lbs> check again> spin> check againt> bolt cover on> break shit!
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Does the kicker gear bush need to be reamed to the mainshaft, perhaps? A slightly large mainshaft and a slightly loose fit between bush and gear might come apart like yours is.
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

You could stick a dial gauge on the case and set the needle against the shaft where the bushing rides. Turn mainshaft slowly and check for uniformity...

Mine was full on locked up when it went. That bushing should float freely, if it took some work to remove then something is definitely up with the bushing to shaft fit, and that's probably what caused the baker gear to fail.



Joel I believe I have a new Jims kicker gear bushing I can send you if you want to try and reuse that baker gear or if they give you any flak. Lemme know what they say and if you need it I'll drop it in the mail. You may need to get a new mainshaft though....good thing is an Andrews is less than $200 and it'll give you a chance to go back through the transmission.

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Old 03-28-2016, 01:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
Does the kicker gear bush need to be reamed to the mainshaft, perhaps?
possible? fit nicely without any sort of binding when i installed it.

Quote:
You could stick a dial gauge on the case and set the needle against the shaft where the bushing rides. Turn mainshaft slowly and check for uniformity...
yep, plan to tonight.

Quote:
That bushing should float freely, if it took some work to remove then something is definitely up with the bushing to shaft fit, and that's probably what caused the baker gear to fail.
agreed. I have a bronze ring (like your pic) about 1/8" wide at inner portion of shaft near inner threads.

more i think about it, the more i think its gotta be in the mainshaft (and probably a result of the first failure)
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Old 03-28-2016, 01:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Joel, what fluid did you run?
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Old 03-28-2016, 01:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

last summer i ran 600 Wt gear oil (equivilant to SAE 250 wt. *i think*) designed for Ford Model A gearboxes.

this go around, i decided to try Lucas Heavy Duty 85/140
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Old 03-28-2016, 07:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Wrong oils
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:30 AM   #12
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

The yellow metal issue.... I wonder.
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Old 03-29-2016, 08:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
Wrong oils
really? I ran the 600wt last summer to CA and back without a hint of problems (just shy of 6K miles) This oil is designed for old gearboxes, i REALLY doubt this would have been the issue.

now the lucas... who knows, but i can't see the oil being the culprit in less than 8 miles of use. Proper? maybe not, depending on your opinion, but the cause of a bushing meltdown? prolly not.

Quote:
The yellow metal issue.... I wonder.
almost gotta be something on the shaft (burr, wear spot, out of round, etc) I didn't have any time last night to do anything.

Plan tonight: dial indicator on bush surface> call Baker> hope i don't have to buy a new mainshaft (but at this point, don't care, just wanna get it on the road)

if it ends up just being a burr or something, will i be able to clean it up with emery cloth or the like?
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

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if it ends up just being a burr or something, will i be able to clean it up with emery cloth or the like?
I sure wouldn't, unless it was in a totally unused location. The hardening on those mainshafts is reeeeeeally thin.
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

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I sure wouldn't, unless it was in a totally unused location. The hardening on those mainshafts is reeeeeeally thin.
copy that, so basically if it's gotten hot/collected bushing material = new mainshaft

might as well place the order now...
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:19 PM   #16
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

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copy that, so basically if it's gotten hot/collected bushing material = new mainshaft

might as well place the order now...
I would probably set tight until I took a good long look at what's going on in there.

I'm wondering if your bushing is a hair long and kissed the two Woodruff keys on the mainshaft.
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:33 PM   #17
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

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Originally Posted by govmule84 View Post
I would probably set tight until I took a good long look at what's going on in there.

I'm wondering if your bushing is a hair long and kissed the two Woodruff keys on the mainshaft.
This is what happened to mine. Ordered a bush from W&W. Had to turn it down on the lath it was probably a mil too long.
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Old 03-29-2016, 06:21 PM   #18
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

"just shy of 6k"
because you get away with something doesn't make it right. Question know is how are the roller bearings in the trans now that you ran the heavy oil which can cause the rollers to skate and flat spot. Maybe you will be lucky.
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Old 03-30-2016, 11:41 AM   #19
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

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"just shy of 6k"
because you get away with something doesn't make it right. Question know is how are the roller bearings in the trans now that you ran the heavy oil which can cause the rollers to skate and flat spot. Maybe you will be lucky.
Forgive me but I feel like this is reaching. He had a failure because he used a compromised part when he rebuilt. If his oil was the culprit I find it very hard to believe the damage would be isolated to just one part of the transmission. It's much more likely that the hardening on the shaft deteriorated at the kicker gear thus allowing a higher degree of thermal expansion where it rides.

Perhaps the heavy oil accelerated the failure if clearances between the gear and the shaft closed up and the oil was unable to wick itself into the bushing. But I cannot see how it would be the cause of this problem in the first place.
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: 4 speed kicker gear issue

Quote:
I'm wondering if your bushing is a hair long and kissed the two Woodruff keys on the mainshaft.
closer inspection of the bushing indicates that this is likely the culprit.




Checked main shaft with dial indiactor, .0015 run out, rules out main shaft being bent.

Called Baker, they are sending a new gear.
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