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Old 11-14-2009, 07:07 PM   #1
JAWS
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Default Star hub vs Mid star

Confusion at least for me there was.

Starts with the basket I got in trade that I have been lax on sharing details of the build, shame on me.

So, as the story goes I was having a hard time figuring out rear braking parts including wheels. Seems I had an iron head rear wheel and an old banana caliper. Seemed to work physically, but the wheel/tire was offset to one side about 3/4 of an inch.

I promptly got rid of the offending wheels and shelved the brake stuff.

I have been looking for a juice drum setup for a while, finally found one. Got it from a friend, a jj'er in fact. Ended up with a star hub 16"er, the spacer for a mechanical drum to mount it to the frame slide and a repop axle kit for a straight leg frame harley.

All great pieces, one problem as I'm sure you already know, they don't go together. I didn't know this at the time and I am hoping this thread will shed some light for others who are in the same boat as I was.

I should note that I have it working fine now with the correct parts and some modifications to them.

Case in point Star Hub wheel produced '36-'66 as far as I know.

Next is the Mid Star wheel produced '67-'72

Quick comparison




Also you will note that the drum side of the hubs are really different. The Star Hub is longer and houses the outer bearing, where in the Mid Star has the outer bearing in the drum. I wish I had a mechanical drum so I could show that too. The ones pictured are both 41400-67's original '67-'72 drums.


Bringing us to the axles and spacers.
Chrome repop is the standard '36-'57 rigid setup with an old drum mount/spacer for a mechanical drum.

The old patina'd setup is for '67-'72. I will make note that I had to take .250" off the rightside spacer ( the one opposite the brake drum) and had to add a .250" spacer to the drum mount side to center the wheel and align the chain correctly in my particular frame.


Notice the difference in the drum mounts.

Anyone else with some more knowledge please jump in a correct me if I missed something or miss spoke.

-Brant
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Old 11-14-2009, 07:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

Sorry for the big pictures, I wanted to show in detail what I have been unable to find in pictures myself.
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Old 11-14-2009, 07:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

so, what's your question ??
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Old 11-14-2009, 08:01 PM   #4
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

No question, just comparison for those who don't know the difference.

My intent is to show something I couldn't find, in better detail for those who are looking.
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Old 11-14-2009, 08:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

If I'm not mistaken the 67-72 is hydraulic and the 66 later is manual? I have the 67-72 but its not on the road yet. I believe this is the superior setup because there is three bearings and less pieces in the hub as well as better braking power than the manual. But then you have to have a master. I'm curious as well to the differences in style/looks and performance.
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Old 11-14-2009, 08:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

Quote:
Originally Posted by abeblinkin View Post
If I'm not mistaken the 67-72 is hydraulic and the 66 later is manual? I have the 67-72 but its not on the road yet. I believe this is the superior setup because there is three bearings and less pieces in the hub as well as better braking power than the manual. But then you have to have a master. I'm curious as well to the differences in style/looks and performance.
I have a picture of my setup installed in my straight leg frame originally having a mechanical setup.



Bear in mind that this isn't done yet, just mocked up for fit and then I'll rebuild it.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

Quote:
Originally Posted by abeblinkin View Post
If I'm not mistaken the 67-72 is hydraulic and the 66 later is manual? I have the 67-72 but its not on the road yet. I believe this is the superior setup because there is three bearings and less pieces in the hub as well as better braking power than the manual. But then you have to have a master. I'm curious as well to the differences in style/looks and performance.

36-57 is the manual breaks, the first Hydrolick was in 58 for the big twin, the star hub was used up intill 66, then came the later hub with half the bearings in the drum...........Roach.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

Quote:
Originally Posted by abeblinkin View Post
If I'm not mistaken the 67-72 is hydraulic and the 66 later is manual? I have the 67-72 but its not on the road yet. I believe this is the superior setup because there is three bearings and less pieces in the hub as well as better braking power than the manual. But then you have to have a master. I'm curious as well to the differences in style/looks and performance.
1966 was the last year for the Star Hub - and it was hydraulic.
Hydraulic Rear Brakes started in 1958.

66-72 is a transition year, and unless your going for a restoration the star hub is cheaper and easier to get parts for (unless you have them and they are paid for).

Last edited by dirttracker26; 11-14-2009 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

Although there are some minor variations, especially dealing with early 1958, there are three basic configurations"

1958-1962: backing plate with a small lip, smaller wheel cylinder, narrower brake shoes, and a star hub.

1963-1966 Backing plate has an edge that rolls over the lip of the brake drum, a larger wheel cylinder, wider shoes with a drum to match, and a star hub.

1967-1972 Same backing plate/wheel cylinder/shoes as '63-66. Brake drum now carries two roller bearings, and uses a mid-star hub.

I tend to disagree with dirttracker on the hubs. Star hubs are easier to come by, but a lot of them are worn or corroded beyond an easy rebuild. The mid star hubs are a little more thin on the ground, due to the shorter production run, but unless you're sourcing your bearings from the Harley dealer, they can be rebuilt pretty cheaply.

I think the entire assembly, axle, spacers, etc, is about 1/4" wider than the rigid mechanical setup. Although it may not be the absolute "right" way to do it, most guys just spread the frame that much.
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Old 11-14-2009, 11:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

I ran a mid-hub juice set-up on a wishbone framed pan/shovel hybrid in '73-'74. I fabbed a bracket to anchor the backing plate, so no welding on the frame. Seems like I used a late (narrow) spacer on the left and shortened the right side like yours, no frame spreading. I still have one of those brakes and wheel around I am thinking of putting on a Knuckle Bobber. Not much has changed in the last 35 years!
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:12 AM   #11
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

As it has been mentioned, the brake drum for the transition hub is unique for that hub only. If you don't have a drum it could be harder to find the drum.

And to M.O.Ther's point... the 66-72 is a transition year have been on the ground less time then OE star hubs. Agreed.

I did a little research in the After Market region:
  • V-Twin (retail prices) sells both hubs and drums, the 67-72 hub is cheaper then the star hub by $43 ($242 vs $199 respectively).
  • The Drums are different but priced the same @ $242 for black and $257 for Chrome.
  • Factory Hub complete rebuild kits
    • Star Hub - $117 (includes everything but the hub)
    • Transition Hub - Bearingsx3 =27, Lock Nut and Seal Kit =22, inner spacer =12, Chrome cover =24. Total is $139
Its all more then you asked for I'm sure. But I felt the need to get the facts. Seems on the after market (compared to OE parts at a swap meet) they are about the same.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:21 AM   #12
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

If nothing else my ignorance has provided us with some answers I see^^. Thx
I'm still a little confused about setting endplay in my 67-72 hub. Are the drums interchangeable? I heard somewhere they would work, just something about the brake backing plate sticking out further or something like that. Also which hole does the spring that holds the two shoes together go in? When I put it in the obvious holes there seems to be to much pressure on the drum and no adjustment available on those square bolts that look like they are for adjusting the shoes. Hmmmm? I made a tool to get the right side bearing and retainer out of the hub. took a little heat.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

And that Abe, is what this site is all about....At least I think it is???

..............Roach.
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Old 11-15-2009, 01:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.O.Ther View Post
Although there are some minor variations, especially dealing with early 1958, there are three basic configurations"

1958-1962: backing plate with a small lip, smaller wheel cylinder, narrower brake shoes, and a star hub.

1963-1966 Backing plate has an edge that rolls over the lip of the brake drum, a larger wheel cylinder, wider shoes with a drum to match, and a star hub.

1967-1972 Same backing plate/wheel cylinder/shoes as '63-66. Brake drum now carries two roller bearings, and uses a mid-star hub.

I tend to disagree with dirttracker on the hubs. Star hubs are easier to come by, but a lot of them are worn or corroded beyond an easy rebuild. The mid star hubs are a little more thin on the ground, due to the shorter production run, but unless you're sourcing your bearings from the Harley dealer, they can be rebuilt pretty cheaply.

I think the entire assembly, axle, spacers, etc, is about 1/4" wider that the rigid mechanical setup. Although it may not be the absolute "right" way to do it, most guys just spread the frame that much.
Does that mean that the swingarms from 67-72 are different to the 63-66?
I think I have an older swingarm and everything fits in its just a little snug, might explain the extra 1/4"?

Roach, I think your right? Right?
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:54 AM   #15
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

thank you
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Old 11-15-2009, 08:48 AM   #16
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

attention mod(s) this needs to be added to the tech archives before it slips into oblivion
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

Quote:
Originally Posted by abeblinkin View Post
Are the drums interchangeable? I heard somewhere they would work, just something about the brake backing plate sticking out further or something like that. Also which hole does the spring that holds the two shoes together go in? When I put it in the obvious holes there seems to be to much pressure on the drum and no adjustment available on those square bolts that look like they are for adjusting the shoes. Hmmmm? I made a tool to get the right side bearing and retainer out of the hub. took a little heat.
No they are not the same drum.

Here is a picture of the 67-72 brake setups. Notice the backing plate on the right is upside down (sorry). Also they both use different springs. The one on the left has a shorter top spring which goes in the same hole on both shoes. The one on the right has the longer version and starts in the same hole as the previous one, but stretches to the closet round hole.

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Old 11-15-2009, 10:16 AM   #18
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

In Palmer's book, he details 4 different versions of the round swingarm. mostly casting number and Zerk fitting differences, and the '63 and later have some extra reinforcing on the left axle clip. But they're all the same width, and any of the combinations will fit in any of the swingarms.

The early backing plate must be used with the early drum and star hub. The later backing plate can be used with either of the later hub/drum sets. A star hub drum will bolt to the mid star hub, but that combination would leave you without bearings on the left side of the axle.

The procedure in the manual for rebuilding the star hub involves fitting complete sets of rollers in the various oversizes (about .0002" apart) until one is too tight, then backing up one. Then of course there's setting the end play with the shims. I've always been fortunate to have access to a shop where those things were available separately and never had to buy a kit.

Same with the mid star hub. I got the pieces separately. The $24 chrome cover looks really sharp on a black powder coated hub, but the last time I got bearings, I got them at a bearing house rather than pay $27 each at the dealer. I think they were about 1/3 of the dealer price. And since they're ball bearings, there's no end play to set.
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Old 03-11-2010, 05:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

Picture of the drum backing plate set up without the wheel cylinder.

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Old 03-11-2010, 07:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: Star hub vs Mid star

1958-62 juice backing plates also have a brake stay that is removable. It bolts in from the back side. That's an easy way to tell the early from late
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