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Having shifting / clutch issues

6K views 32 replies 10 participants last post by  johnjzjz 
#1 ·
I'd appreciate any help you guys can give, I'm pretty much out of ideas other than installing a ramm jet retainer.

Short Version of main issue

If I pull clutch in (in nuetral) and turn hub counterclockwise basket moves towards transmission and hub spins freely. If I turn hub clockwise basket moves out towards me, clutch drags and hub is hard to turn.

Detailed info below.

Anyone know why this is happening?


The Bike was custom Built (not by me)

VL frame
V twin repop 87" Knuckle
Baker 6 in a 4 case
1 1/2" belt drive with Idler (tensioner)
5 stud clutch hub
52 long rollers with stamped steel retainer plate and 5 coiled spring clips
Ness retro hydraulic clutch master cylinder 11/16"
baker hydraulic Kicker Cover
prairie tech Talon diaphragm spring conversion

Here are the problems:

1. Clutch is hard to pull

2. Difficult to shift at low rpm

3. Clutch grabbing while sitting still in gear with clutch pulled in.

4. Hard to find nuetral

I know the clutch is dragging

I think I know what causes the clutch to drag but don't know why its happening.

Bike off in nuetral

If I pull clutch in (in nuetral) and turn hub counterclockwise basket moves towards transmission and hub spins freely. If I turn hub clockwise basket moves out towards me, clutch drags and hub is hard to turn.

Bike running in nuetral watching basket and belt spin on both pulleys

If I pull clutch in the basket moves away from transmission about 3/16". Also when I pull the lever I can see the belt move about 1/16" outward on front pulley until it contacts the lip on the pulley.

I have checked pulley alignment carefully and I think it is lined up. I've checked horizontally with a straightedge and have also used an angle finder to check vertically.

I have set/checked belt tension thoroughly. Freeplay 3/4" up and down total in the middle on topside of belt.

I don't think it is the belt alignment or tension because the basket does the same thing with bike running and with bike off (belt not turning) and even with belt removed.

Turn hub CCW basket moves in towards trans spins freely, turn CW basket moves out cause clutch to drag.

I noticed that the rollers are wearing into the steel retainer slightly.

Other Info

I spoke to the owner of prairie tech and have set the spring up exactly as instructed. Spring is .005" from flat at the edges and not dished.

Adjusted spring retainer plate nuts with a dial indicator to within .003" of runout on spring retainer plate

used a dial indicator on edge of spring to center spring within .004" runout

Please provide any thoughts you might have

Thanks
 
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#2 ·
this is a very common problem - i would install a ram jet they work we keep them in stock in the shop, set it at the tightest spot so the drum and the hub stay put when you pull in the clutch the B is usually the one it wants to use

they also make a diaphragm type set up and it make the clutch effort much less

i would also use stock springs and set the springs plate plus the 1 inch in the hub plate to the spring retainer / you could loosen till the clutch slips than tighten the nuts one click at a time till it holds real good - your lever might stay the same or it might be better
 
#3 ·
Thanks.

I'm going to go ahead and order the ramm jet.

Its nice to hear it's common. I've had it all apart to inspect it and everything looks good.


Already has a diaphragm conversion. I've tried adjusting the nuts in a few spots right now they are set by the instructions. Push rod is backed off 1/4 turn. Tried backing off 1/4 1/2 3/4 and 1 turn.


I think once I get it shifting right the clutch pull won't bother me as much.
 
#4 ·
I agree with all that's said here but want to add clutch cable must be free to move/slide within its housing. To ensure that happens route the cable properly and don't wire tie it snug or tight anywhere. Been seeing that more and more.
 
#5 ·
I disagree. If you leave the cable hanging loose, it takes half the pull, to get the cable pulling on the clutch arm. Even the stock setup, had the cable mounted at the neck, and this was to give the full pull on the clutch. Cables need to be free to slide inside, but mounted to get full pull.
 
#11 ·
as was said alignment should go along with setting this up but i read you walked it both ways the assembly and it pulled correct so i believed the allignment was correct - i guess ram jet could be called a band aid BUT it works very well i have installed 100s of them in period correct bikes as they want the mail dog marking its spot - as far as i belt drive goes some retain the hub and that is an after thought to the original way harley designed the set up and that also works well

above it was added the full set of rollers and the ram jet is the deal if your bearing is not held in place for me this is the fix
 
#8 ·
Not to hijack your thread, but I'd like to see a picture of your bike. OHV-VL swaps have always interested me. How does the VTwin motor run? Oh yeah, when you're having clutch problems you most always have trouble shifting. I use the long bearings and Ramjet retainer, very few problems with that combo.
Steve
 
#9 ·
i think i know this bike a little....built in ephrata pa and sold in columbia pa. i would consider a primo rivera clutch, basket can not move in and out...no ram jett band aid fix needed. hub has a double row self aligning bearing, just like the late models, i have them on my stroker shovel and big twin flathead, the shovel has had 10 plus years of absolutely trouble free operation, my flathead is in it's 3rd season 25k miles and no clutch trouble. i gave up on the 1941 clutch design on any bike that i rack up the miles on. i have tried everything there is on strokers where the clutch is stressed beyond it's design limits. you may have an alignment issue as well. can't remember but it is a belt primary? with the rivera unit you use your basket...chain or belt and replace the harley hub with their unit along with sportster steels and their clutches.....you can spend endless hours playing with that clutch only to have to do over and over again. i'm in lancaster pa and if you want to see a rivera in action pm me and i'll show you what i am talking about...mark a....oh boy this is gonna fire up some hardcore harley clutch guys!
 
#10 ·
I got one on e-gay used (Rivera-Primo)....smooth as silk. I called them after inspecting it...I thought there was something missing as the first plate does not contact the clutch basket where you would think it would. I was told everything was there, proper installation, and they even would honor the warranty.
 
#13 ·
Mark59...Thats the bike.

You may know it better than me. Its got a few issues. I was aware of them but I bought the bike anyway thinking I can fix them.

I'll have to check out the rivera if the ram jet doesn't work well. I read a little about the rivera. If I was starting from scratch I'd consider going the rivera but since all of the other parts are in good shape I'm going to try the ram jet first.

It is a 1 1/2" belt drive, haven't figured out the brand yet.

Thanks for your help.
 
#14 ·
Johnjzjz,

It does walk both in and out depending on the way you turn it....I think the rollers are running crooked inside....

just got an idea of why it may be happening...

One end of the rollers may be dragging more that the other causing the rollers to run crooked on hub. That would explain it.

I'm wondering if they are dragging in the clutch hub....maybe the rollers are too long or the distance from the hub to the retainer (Inner race length) is undersize.

Not having a cage for the rollers may be the real issue on the hub "walk".
 
#16 ·
Very cool ! I see that setup of spacers and cap nuts on the clutch hub fingers and wonder if it's set for proper diaphram/clutch clearance. Maybe take another look at that and ensure that's all correct and reset clutch cable play. I'd set throw out bearing shaft clearance at 1/4 turn out.
 
#17 ·
Yeah I think its cool too. I really dug the style of the bike. The original owner of the bike was a guy in wrightsville pa (Not sure he'd want me to say his name). It was built by a shop called Jebby Shack in Ephrata pa. The fabrication that was done on the bike is pretty nice and they did a nice job lining up the motor and tranny if my measurements are correct.

I found out talking to baker yesterday that I need to open the bleeder when adjusting the throwout bearing shaft and make sure I bottom the piston, and then set the clearance. Then re-bleed the clutch master cylinder.

I plan to do that when i install the ram jet. I'm also going to inspect and check everything again.

I was doing it without opening the bleeder.

I don't like the looks of the spacers and acorn nuts, I plan to do something different if I get it working right.
 
#19 ·
the baker 6 speed, is it tapered shaft or spline shaft? bert baker makes shafts both ways for the old bikes....lets you run a modern HD clutch on an old knuck, U, pan or shovel. would be nice to know if you ever change out the clutch...Jebby could tell you. ...and by the the way....thats the bike!
 
#21 ·
Not sure... I think I may have the part number I'll have to look. I have all of the receipts from the build. That is very handy.

I talked to Jebby right after I bought it. Once I get it straightened out I plan to ride it up to his shop. He wants to check it out and see whats changed on it.

The guy I bought it from got it in trade from the original owner for doing some work on his house or something.

I plan to call the original owner one of these days. I'd like to find out why he let it go.
 
#22 · (Edited)
i would think since it has the old style clutch hub it would be taper shaft. boy when ya get old it takes a while to sort out the simple things..LOL. i took a quick look at the receipts a few weeks ago.. maybe you didn't build the bike but you are able to own it for less than it cost to build and that my friend is a a wonderful thing! enjoy the bike and will see you out and about in the york area.
Mark
 
#30 ·
^^^^^^+1.... plus in a different thread "similar" style clutches were discussed, and customer support and warranty surfaced..... even though I got mine second had, when I called for help and had a few questions....P.R. was more than willing to help me. THIS alone will have me purchasing another if (when) I get another bike.
I wonder if they ever toyed with doing a Triumph setup??? Hmmm
 
#32 ·
Update... installed the retainer and so far so good. I'll have to see how long it lasts. Was definitely worth a try for less than $20.

Shifts good and can get into nuetral rolling to a stop.

Thanks for the input and advice. If I have trouble in the future maybe I'll switch over to the primo.
 
#33 ·
the plastic disc seems to last for years - its the first thing we try in the shop before big dollar purchases -- glad to see that did it for you -- jz
 
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