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Old 01-25-2018, 06:10 PM   #41
rhysmort
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

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Originally Posted by JasonMcElroy View Post
Rhysmort . . .

I run a Linkert on my 74" stock pan. Works GREAT.

My ironhead sportster (also stock displacement) LOVED the Super B but not so much the E.

Don't even get me started on the Amal mono-blocs on the BSA. Finicky beasts.

It's nice to have choices.

Jason
Hey Jason,

Yeah, I have two mates one with a pan shovel and the other with a 54 pan that's got STD heads and stroked both have Super E shorties and run pretty damn well, don't kick first time like my old girl though!! . My pan, which is BONE stock, 48 heads, oem pistons and jugs.. ran like ass... so go figure! put the 74B on it and she's ran 5000 miles (touch wood) another 50 like butter.
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Old 03-08-2018, 12:50 PM   #42
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

guess its been a while since i posted up on here -



So i finished up wiring headlight and taillight. waiting on sissy bar which the guy swears is going to be done at the end of the week....

Real talk....Been trying to figure out why my engine is sumping a shit load of oil. A break down of the issue:

- My engine seemingly has two breathers, which I cant find any reference to shovelheads having two but they are coming out of the case from behind the oil pump. i'll upload some pics to demonstrate this but i cant find reference to two crankcase breathers in the fsm or internet.

- oil is pouring from both of these breathers when the bike is running.

- i would try to run this til it ended up finally running out but theres a catch, i really dont want to end up running the motor dry because it doesnt seem to returning oil while running. to test i removed the return line from the oil tank while leaving it connected to the pump and watched it as it ran and i did see some dribbles of oil returning but not nearly enough to leave me satisfied. Im led to believe that the pump is not returning oil and therefore its filling the cases and sumping out the breathers.

- the oil pump appears to be an s&s body (has s&s stamped) with an oem cover. is this even runnable? seems like a mish mash of parts to me.

So i cant think of anything else to write about the issue right now but im losing some sleep over this issue for sure. Looking for some input here. Sounds like my oil pump is either fucked or i have some serious issues in my motor. Is oil pump cover/body replacement pretty DIY? Bike runs fine but is relentlessly dumping oil im assuming because the oil pump is not properly returning oil. So everything i've read tells me to pull the oil pump cover check the scavenger gear , mightve sheared a "woodruff key". been meaning to check the check valve / ball i have replacement parts but no wide-ass flathead tool to remove the slotted screw on top of the pump...im also stressed by this issue bc while troubleshooting the oil return issues i've seen my motor burning oil presumably bc of the mass of oil in the engine seeping past the rings and burning oil, as well as oil pushing past my main shaft oil seal leaking oil out of the mainshaft hub. dunno if i ruined the seal but it seems likely. motor definitely runs strong so im hopeful i havent done damage. overall an annoying situation.

Here are some images of the oil pump, crankcase breathers in question -



oil pump in question..

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Old 03-08-2018, 02:20 PM   #43
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead



You have a belt. The bottom-most vent on the CASE (labeled "crankcase vent" in the above photo is the only "vent" you should have. Run it down to underneath the bike.

Make sure the rear chain oiler is screwed all the way in (gently), and the primary oiler and return are blocked off.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:33 AM   #44
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

Better view of the two vents coming out -

I can tell you that the one without a hose on it pictured is gushing oil while running, the other is not but breathes a small amount of oil. If I plug the silver colored line it overpressurizes my cases.

Notice in the pic there are no woodruff keys, thats how i found it when i pulled the pump yesterday. Also the gaskets were pretty messed up











so now im waiting for some keys to arrive for reassembly.

Last edited by chibs69; 03-16-2018 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:02 AM   #45
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I'd be real concerned about where those keys ran off to, personally.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:13 PM   #46
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

i mean personally i suspect they were never installed. unless they were crushed up and in which case they are long gone. but the shaft doesnt slip into the cam cover past where the key slots are. dunno.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:13 PM   #47
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

You need to pull your nose cone off and see what's going on in there also. If the keys were missing (and if they were installed correctly there is no way that they can work out) who knows what else is f-ed up. The port that you say is gushing oil should have suction on it during part of the engine rotation, to draw oil from the primary in the stock application, and be blocked off by the breather during the rest of the cycle. Seems to me that if it's blowing oil out the breather may be out of time. Also check to make sure that they key is in the pump drive gear on the front end of the oil pump drive.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:34 PM   #48
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

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You need to pull your nose cone off and see what's going on in there also. If the keys were missing (and if they were installed correctly there is no way that they can work out) who knows what else is f-ed up. The port that you say is gushing oil should have suction on it during part of the engine rotation, to draw oil from the primary in the stock application, and be blocked off by the breather during the rest of the cycle. Seems to me that if it's blowing oil out the breather may be out of time. Also check to make sure that they key is in the pump drive gear on the front end of the oil pump drive.
im cool with doing this, just need to remove pushrods first right? do i need to remove all the tappets and stuff? any gaskets reusable?











anything i need to know going into this? im buying a cone gasket, do i need tappet gaskets and anything special tool wise to get into this? I've timed an disassembled an ironhead cam cover...

Last edited by chibs69; 03-16-2018 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:50 PM   #49
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To do what Whizzbang is recommending, you'll want to remove or slacken the pushrods, yes. When you pull the cone, the cam very well may try to come along, possibly dumping the tappets out.

To do the job right, you really ought to recompress a new cone gasket and recheck your cam endplay specs, though others have gotten by before reusing that gasket. New pushrod corks would be thoughtful, too, but not necessary. A points cover gasket might be a gasket you can reuse with little consequence.
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:17 PM   #50
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

If you can not turn the pump shaft it is connected. Leave well enough alone.
You can not push the pump shaft in because it will hit the case inside the cone cover.
The oil suction fitting from the primary should be plugged.
Their are 2 types of cone gaskets. Match a new one to the old gasket as well as to the cone and crankcase.
So were both keys in the pump missing?
If only the return side key was missing that would get you wet sumped with oil puking out. I would get the pump back together and check it out. Oil returning to tank. Match your pump gaskets also there are several to choose from be sure you use the right ones.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

Remove the push rods, remove the timer and advance assy or rotor cup depending on what ignition you're running. After removing the bolts from the nose cone and getting it loosened up from case push in on the cam through the timer hole while you pull the cone off, this will keep the cam in the case and engaged with the gears so that you can check all of the timing marks. If the cam comes out you'll never be sure of where the marks are right now.

Also inspect the bore that the breather runs in (to the rear of the cam) If this is badly worn it can cause poor scavenging and oil pushing out of the primary suction fitting (which should be plugged in your case, but still shouldn't have oil pumping out of it.) Yes to new gaskets. Joe is right that the drive shaft won't turn if the key is in the drive gear, but while you're in there make sure that the key is on the worm gear on the pinion that drives the pump drive gear. You don't need to pull it apart to tell if the key is there, if the worm gear will move a little back and forth on the pinion but not spin then it's OK. I've seen that key missing before and the only thing driving the pump at all was friction, not good.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:34 PM   #52
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If you have the new MC on the rear brakes and they still are weak, look at the outer plate, at the two Square drive bolts on the front and back of the outer plate, Those are for spacing the shoes to the drum. If you allow the slack in the pressure system by sitting, you can turn those square bolts, and on the inside of the brake, they have cams that rotate and keep the shoes from separating so far, that the brake pedal and fluid can not move them far enough for good stopping power. Snug them, then back off about 1/8th inch, and then try again. If still weak, snug them half the 1/8th. If they are still weak, you may have to inspect the brake cylinder(where the brake line mounts up), and to do that, you have to pull the drum/wheel. Many times, I have seen corrosion from non mechanical maintenance. usually, a hone will fix them. But in my opinion, it is best to buy a kit(if the bore does not have a lot of pitting.), or just get a new brake cylinder. Also, the thickness of the shoes may affect this too. To thin, low pressure and slack on stopping. Sometimes, the adjusters will take up the slack, but you need to look at the linings, to make sure a rivet is not close to the drum, or you will be installing pretty grooves, where you want it to be pretty flat. The master cylinder, even if the right look, may be for Disc. So, if you have a pc, look up the fix for changing from Disc, to drum. The residual valve is needed to keep the shoes under pressure, where a disc, does not need this, because the drum style has return springs that can and will pull the shoes to far in, for the fluid to push all the way back out. The residual valve, holds the pressure at the right spot, to keep the shoes slightly dragging. Disc has no springs, and only opens up until there is no pressure on the pads.

The square unit you have for a mc, is not the right one, those were all disc, unless I am misinformed after 4o years of wrenching on the old bikes. The round style mc is the right body, and 3/4 bore is for drums. 5/8ths is for disc. Not to mention, make sure the brake lines are not plugged, or collapsed causing a back up of fluid, and nothing, or little getting to the wheel cylinder. Seen a lot of the hose style OEM type, lines collapse, and a good way to tell , is pull it, and blow air pressure through it. If it dribbles air or fluid, it is bad. If it whips like a air line with no end on it, it is at least not blocked.
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Old 03-18-2018, 03:43 PM   #53
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

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Originally Posted by WhizzbangK.C. View Post
Remove the push rods, remove the timer and advance assy or rotor cup depending on what ignition you're running. After removing the bolts from the nose cone and getting it loosened up from case push in on the cam through the timer hole while you pull the cone off, this will keep the cam in the case and engaged with the gears so that you can check all of the timing marks. If the cam comes out you'll never be sure of where the marks are right now.

Also inspect the bore that the breather runs in (to the rear of the cam) If this is badly worn it can cause poor scavenging and oil pushing out of the primary suction fitting (which should be plugged in your case, but still shouldn't have oil pumping out of it.) Yes to new gaskets. Joe is right that the drive shaft won't turn if the key is in the drive gear, but while you're in there make sure that the key is on the worm gear on the pinion that drives the pump drive gear. You don't need to pull it apart to tell if the key is there, if the worm gear will move a little back and forth on the pinion but not spin then it's OK. I've seen that key missing before and the only thing driving the pump at all was friction, not good.
This^^^....use your thumbs and have a buddy tap the cone easy. Real gently as you pull.

Also replace that seal for the cam......most guys just forget it.

Lets think about everything real close. Logic and common sense coupled with a good visual inspection of EVERYTHING, is the best tool in your arsenal.
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Old 03-18-2018, 03:49 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by shovithead View Post
If you have the new MC on the rear brakes and they still are weak, look at the outer plate, at the two Square drive bolts on the front and back of the outer plate, Those are for spacing the shoes to the drum. If you allow the slack in the pressure system by sitting, you can turn those square bolts, and on the inside of the brake, they have cams that rotate and keep the shoes from separating so far, that the brake pedal and fluid can not move them far enough for good stopping power. Snug them, then back off about 1/8th inch, and then try again. If still weak, snug them half the 1/8th. If they are still weak, you may have to inspect the brake cylinder(where the brake line mounts up), and to do that, you have to pull the drum/wheel. Many times, I have seen corrosion from non mechanical maintenance. usually, a hone will fix them. But in my opinion, it is best to buy a kit(if the bore does not have a lot of pitting.), or just get a new brake cylinder. Also, the thickness of the shoes may affect this too. To thin, low pressure and slack on stopping. Sometimes, the adjusters will take up the slack, but you need to look at the linings, to make sure a rivet is not close to the drum, or you will be installing pretty grooves, where you want it to be pretty flat. The master cylinder, even if the right look, may be for Disc. So, if you have a pc, look up the fix for changing from Disc, to drum. The residual valve is needed to keep the shoes under pressure, where a disc, does not need this, because the drum style has return springs that can and will pull the shoes to far in, for the fluid to push all the way back out. The residual valve, holds the pressure at the right spot, to keep the shoes slightly dragging. Disc has no springs, and only opens up until there is no pressure on the pads.

The square unit you have for a mc, is not the right one, those were all disc, unless I am misinformed after 4o years of wrenching on the old bikes. The round style mc is the right body, and 3/4 bore is for drums. 5/8ths is for disc. Not to mention, make sure the brake lines are not plugged, or collapsed causing a back up of fluid, and nothing, or little getting to the wheel cylinder. Seen a lot of the hose style OEM type, lines collapse, and a good way to tell , is pull it, and blow air pressure through it. If it dribbles air or fluid, it is bad. If it whips like a air line with no end on it, it is at least not blocked.
1000% agree.

Also I like anti seize on the backing plate where the shoes contact the plate. Not to much.

The square master cylinder doe not have the residual valve. Disc only for these, or pump the shit out of them before you stop. Ask me how I know....
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:26 PM   #55
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

There's no way in hell I'd ever do any work on the oil pump without pulling the timing cover and checking it all out.

I've found a few pump keys in the bottom of the cavity even when the shaft didn't want to turn.

I'm also a fan of working on a whole "area" at a time so I don't have to rely on wishes and dreams to keep me sane. Checking the pump? Do the whole timing case, checking bushing fit, oil passages, seals, cam play, breather bore and play, etc. Not that much more work once you're in there and you'll have peace of mind.ll

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but be careful to check your final setup on the oil pump before buttoning up the timing cover. It's not only possible, but VERY EASY, to get the alignment of the pump body slightly off when torquing down making the shaft bind in the case bush. That won't last long if you don't catch it.

Clean the oil pump bolt threads in the case and the bolts. Use new gaskets and be damned sure they're the correct ones. There are a lot of janky ones around. Change the oil seal between the feed and scavenge sides. Check the key ways on the pump shaft for sharp edges before reinstalling through seal. Torque the bolts down in an distributed pattern, and a little at a time. Maybe 20in/lbs, 40in/lbs, etc until you reach final.

IMPORTANT: You'll be needing to check that shaft rotates freely at each step. If it doesn't, back off, reposition, and try again. The easiest way to do this is to remove the pinion gear and oil pump drive from pinion shaft. This allows you to rotate the pump shaft by hand from the timing case. If you still can't turn it after repositioning it, you may have oil pump gaskets that are too thin resulting in pump gear binding when buttoned down.

Sorry if it sounds like a pain in the ass.

This is literally the heart of your motor and warrants extreme care.

Jason
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:58 PM   #56
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Shit...Jason. You have a way with sayin the stuff we tend to just do as we are assembling, and making it sound like a strict process to be followed. Which it is......

I am ashamed.
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:31 AM   #57
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Cheers to Jason, for saying it like it is. Not the way we want to cut corners. Plus, to add one thing that is of utmost importance.... the second you find one missed part, or thing done wrong, it is really necessary to go the whole mile, and NOT cut corners, or you could be chasing the same problem, after the motor is seized. And then, you really have problems. Plus, don't forget to prime the pump with oil before you try to start, to keep it from starting and running dry, until the thick motor oil gets to the gears. And don't buy cheap replacement parts. Cheap is cheap. You want at least the middle price stuff, although mostly, the expensive ones, are expensive because they are built to closer tolerances. Can't remember what year the oil pump bolts changed from 1/4 24, to 1/4 28, but if they are the 24TPI (Threads Per Inch), don't try to chase them, because you probably don't have a chase or tap. Just use brake cleaner or denatured alcohol and air pressure. You will only ruin them if you use the wrong chase/tap. Or, in other words, do not lose the pump bolts, or you will be ordering them, because they are rarer than hens teeth, unless you have a AM book to get them from.

My years in building have been done around this saying....

"If you can't afford to do it right the first time, then what makes you think you can afford to do it twice?"

Author unknown. I just use it. It was on a poster in the first Indy shop I ever walked into. Behind the CASH register. Excellent place to put it too. Where you PAY.

And Good Luck, and hope it all works out, and love to see more photos as you move forward.
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Keep the old Iron on the road....

42 UL long term project
44 Wife and best friend(Keeper for sure)
51 FLH short term project
60 Doc Dytch XLCH Drag only
61 XLCH parts bike
65 XLCH parts bike
66 FLH
68 XLCH parts bike
69 XLH wifies bike
69 XLH daily rider
70 XLH
72 XLH
72 C30 Chevy truck
73 FLH chopper(Shirley the Shovelhead) Daily rider

Last edited by shovithead; 03-20-2018 at 09:37 AM. Reason: I keep leaving important things out.
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Old 03-20-2018, 09:43 AM   #58
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Great post^

All the advice you're getting, Chibs, reminds me greatly of some of the advice I got here when I waded a little far into the deep end of the pool.

I swam. I sputtered and I failed and I was tired, but I made it out of the pool by myself, and these guys made sure I didn't drown... but they did laugh as I swallowed water. Sooner than later I jumped back in, and then I was swimming.
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:01 AM   #59
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Well, since I am in a nice mood, and trying to be real, thanks to YOU, Govtmule, for bringing me back, after I had moderator problems in the past years. (I self banned myself, over my right to speak my mind, not be a robot) It has been a honor to be here, and the last few years, was due to YOU. This place has lost some good members over the past few years too, and the pickings are getting less and less. But, in the end, if the ones here, that do have contributions to make, the novice and early builder, can advance with knowledge learned from the contributors, without having to cuss and scream on the side of the road, because we offered the info. I live to help the less knowledgeable ones, because when I started, no internet to look at, and no local shops to ask. A place like this, would have saved me tons of wasted Gold. So, when I can help, I do. When I don't know, I read the thread " TO " learn from someone that did before me. It really is cheaper that way.

I can't name you all, but we all know who the responders are, when the shit hits the fan. We all grow, when we learn to help each other. Then we die.......
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Keep the old Iron on the road....

42 UL long term project
44 Wife and best friend(Keeper for sure)
51 FLH short term project
60 Doc Dytch XLCH Drag only
61 XLCH parts bike
65 XLCH parts bike
66 FLH
68 XLCH parts bike
69 XLH wifies bike
69 XLH daily rider
70 XLH
72 XLH
72 C30 Chevy truck
73 FLH chopper(Shirley the Shovelhead) Daily rider

Last edited by shovithead; 03-20-2018 at 10:02 AM. Reason: Same as the last time....
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:55 PM   #60
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Default Re: 1979 Shovelhead

hey wish i had an update atm but with there being no indy shops near me im left waiting on the keys still from egay. one small note the oil pump shaft does not have side to side wiggle or rotation but will move in and out slightly i guess to the point it hits the inside of the case, so im guessing the key is still in there. anyways ill open the cam cover up and take a look regardless.

anyhow, i really appreciate the input, it is immensely helpful and the reason i continue posting on here. im 25 so i feel like im pretty young getting into this stuff. again, thanks for the input its helpful once you start to feel like you dont have the answers or the experience to figure things out. i cant remember how many times i felt like throwing in the towel with my ironhead. its definitely worthwhile to tear into the cam cover to verify everything looks right in there and ill be referencing each comment here.

as i address each thing ill try to get more in depth replies to each comment. should be getting into it this weekend.
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