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4 speed kicker gear issue

6K views 40 replies 9 participants last post by  JAWS 
#1 · (Edited)
Having a weird kicker issue with my ratchet top.

trans was fully rebuilt (by a reputable shop) before any of these issues.

i had to remove kicker cover for something or other this winter, and when i re-installed i *think* i indexed it wrong. Kicker would grab and swing down while running (bigger issue than just the return spring). Dissassembled everything, and gears were all pretty tore up. Bushing in ratchet gear no longer was seated in gear, but rather stuck to main shaft (not seized). I was able to get the bush off without heat or cutting, but it did NOT just slide off.

So, i decided that i would just buy the Baker gears and forego any future kicker problems.

Installed new Baker gears, and made sure everything was properly indexed and working correctly. Fired up the bike, took a couple rips around the block, few other starts as i did some tuning and got lights working.

Next day, i went to start the bike up, and after the 2 prime kicks, i had NOTHING. Not even trying to engage... So i pulled everything back apart to find some nice gold oil again. The bushing in the ratchet gear had walked outward toward cover enough that it would not allow the rachet gears to engage each other.

What would cause this??? My thinking at this point is that it has to be an issue with the shaft (brand new before this fiasco...) My other thought would be the key protruding just a tiny bit and grabbing the bushing (though i don't think this is the case, as i checked/played with this several times before i put the cover on to make sure it was seating/releasing correctly. There was no bind/tight spots with bushing on shaft.

Plan to call Baker this afternoon and pick their brains as well, just wondered if anyone here has had a similar issue?

 
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#2 ·
You know those kicker bushings are usually tight with the asian gears - when mine failed it did the same thing - kicker dove when the bike was running. But in my case the bushing had seized to the shaft, so I replaced with baker gears and a new mainshaft and it's been awesome ever since....

I'm wagering a bad fit somewhere - either the bushing to the mainshaft or the actual interference fit of the bushing within the gear. Perhaps the bushing is heating up and sticking to the shaft, and then in turn spun inside the gear. Does the mainshaft show any evidence of heat etc. where the gear rides?

If it was me I'd probably set up the gear in a vice and see how easy it is to press the bushing out - if the interference fit is soft it's probably no good. Then I'd check clearances on the shaft. If you're reusing the same mainshaft after that first failure you may have compromised the gear from the get go.

I've heard that while the baker gears are best, they still occasionally break. Baker stands behind them no questions asked though.

Bad luck man!
 
#4 ·
I've heard that while the baker gears are best, they still occasionally break. Baker stands behind them no questions asked though.

Bad luck man!
I broke a Baker gear in half when my Shovel kicked back. Do you just send them the busted gear with a return address?
 
#3 ·
to me the gear is not disengaging and instead its being held and the shaft is spinning inside of it the entire time running - reason its shredded

it is supposed to be spinning with the shaft not held still and the shaft spinning - your install may - may have been a miss step

picture up all the pieces that you install in the order you installed them the guys will pick it right out if something was in era
 
#5 ·
But in my case the bushing had seized to the shaft
mine was about 3 miles from seizing to shaft, it took some work to get it off.

Perhaps the bushing is heating up and sticking to the shaft, and then in turn spun inside the gear. Does the mainshaft show any evidence of heat etc. where the gear rides?
that's kind of what i'm thinking.

If you're reusing the same mainshaft after that first failure you may have compromised the gear from the get go.
which kind of goes hand in hand with this... yes, same mainshaft. Thinking maybe the main shaft got fucked the first go around? I'll snap a pic of the shaft when i get to the shop tonight. There are some signs of wear there, but I didn't think it was anything that looked out of the norm.

it is supposed to be spinning with the shaft not held still and the shaft spinning
huh?! the bushing press fits into the gear, and slip fits the shaft...

picture up all the pieces that you install in the order you installed them the guys will pick it right out if something was in era
its possible that i did something wrong, but i'm 99% sure everything is installed correctly....

Spring> ratchet gear with bush> key> outer ratchet gear> lock tab washer> nut> check that key isn't protruding> check engagement of ratchet gears> check bushing sliding on shaft> spin> check all again> spin> check all again> spin check all again> torque to 42 lbs> check again> spin> check againt> bolt cover on> break shit!
 
#6 ·
Does the kicker gear bush need to be reamed to the mainshaft, perhaps? A slightly large mainshaft and a slightly loose fit between bush and gear might come apart like yours is.
 
#7 · (Edited)
You could stick a dial gauge on the case and set the needle against the shaft where the bushing rides. Turn mainshaft slowly and check for uniformity...

Mine was full on locked up when it went. That bushing should float freely, if it took some work to remove then something is definitely up with the bushing to shaft fit, and that's probably what caused the baker gear to fail.



Joel I believe I have a new Jims kicker gear bushing I can send you if you want to try and reuse that baker gear or if they give you any flak. Lemme know what they say and if you need it I'll drop it in the mail. You may need to get a new mainshaft though....good thing is an Andrews is less than $200 and it'll give you a chance to go back through the transmission.
 
#8 ·
Does the kicker gear bush need to be reamed to the mainshaft, perhaps?
possible? fit nicely without any sort of binding when i installed it.

You could stick a dial gauge on the case and set the needle against the shaft where the bushing rides. Turn mainshaft slowly and check for uniformity...
yep, plan to tonight.

That bushing should float freely, if it took some work to remove then something is definitely up with the bushing to shaft fit, and that's probably what caused the baker gear to fail.
agreed. I have a bronze ring (like your pic) about 1/8" wide at inner portion of shaft near inner threads.

more i think about it, the more i think its gotta be in the mainshaft (and probably a result of the first failure)
 
#13 ·
Wrong oils
really? I ran the 600wt last summer to CA and back without a hint of problems (just shy of 6K miles) This oil is designed for old gearboxes, i REALLY doubt this would have been the issue.

now the lucas... who knows, but i can't see the oil being the culprit in less than 8 miles of use. Proper? maybe not, depending on your opinion, but the cause of a bushing meltdown? prolly not.

The yellow metal issue.... I wonder.
almost gotta be something on the shaft (burr, wear spot, out of round, etc) I didn't have any time last night to do anything.

Plan tonight: dial indicator on bush surface> call Baker> hope i don't have to buy a new mainshaft (but at this point, don't care, just wanna get it on the road)

if it ends up just being a burr or something, will i be able to clean it up with emery cloth or the like?
 
#14 ·
if it ends up just being a burr or something, will i be able to clean it up with emery cloth or the like?
I sure wouldn't, unless it was in a totally unused location. The hardening on those mainshafts is reeeeeeally thin.
 
#15 ·
I sure wouldn't, unless it was in a totally unused location. The hardening on those mainshafts is reeeeeeally thin.
copy that, so basically if it's gotten hot/collected bushing material = new mainshaft

might as well place the order now...
 
#16 ·
I would probably set tight until I took a good long look at what's going on in there.

I'm wondering if your bushing is a hair long and kissed the two Woodruff keys on the mainshaft.
 
#18 ·
"just shy of 6k"
because you get away with something doesn't make it right. Question know is how are the roller bearings in the trans now that you ran the heavy oil which can cause the rollers to skate and flat spot. Maybe you will be lucky.
 
#19 ·
Forgive me but I feel like this is reaching. He had a failure because he used a compromised part when he rebuilt. If his oil was the culprit I find it very hard to believe the damage would be isolated to just one part of the transmission. It's much more likely that the hardening on the shaft deteriorated at the kicker gear thus allowing a higher degree of thermal expansion where it rides.

Perhaps the heavy oil accelerated the failure if clearances between the gear and the shaft closed up and the oil was unable to wick itself into the bushing. But I cannot see how it would be the cause of this problem in the first place.
 
#20 ·
I'm wondering if your bushing is a hair long and kissed the two Woodruff keys on the mainshaft.
closer inspection of the bushing indicates that this is likely the culprit.



Checked main shaft with dial indiactor, .0015 run out, rules out main shaft being bent.

Called Baker, they are sending a new gear.
 
#23 ·
On his second try he made no mention of flushing the trans.
you are correct, i did not mention this, but it was done. Complete flush until nothing but perfectly clean solvent.

Further on both occasions the bushing was loosened in the gear and tight on the shaft
you are partially correct, bushing was loose in gear both times.
bushing was tight on shaft first time, but NOT tight on the shaft the second time. It still slid freely (albeit sloppily from the excess wear). I'm still leaning toward the key grabbing the end of the bushing at this point.

Joe49> what oil are you recommending?
 
#26 ·
you are correct, i did not mention this, but it was done. Complete flush until nothing but perfectly clean solvent.

you are partially correct, bushing was loose in gear both times.
bushing was tight on shaft first time, but NOT tight on the shaft the second time. It still slid freely (albeit sloppily from the excess wear). I'm still leaning toward the key grabbing the end of the bushing at this point.

Joe49> what oil are you recommending?
Did you polish the shaft the 1st go around?

It is not likely the bushing was in contact with the key before damage. As this would require the bushing to be out of the gear bore and would have likely stopped it engaging to the rachet gear on the main shaft for kick starting.

Did you lube the bushing during assembly?

FM say's same straight grade as the engine for the temp range. I cheat also and run 90 gear oil, which is about the same as 60 wt motor oil.
 
#24 ·
A friend just painted his sportster motor he cleaned heads with solvent.
started bike and both valves in rear cylinder seized (breaking of a guide and valve head)
in less than 2 minutes .
Bike had new unprimed oil lines and tank.(and he forgot to pre lube head after solvent clean)
 
#28 ·
Did you polish the shaft the 1st go around?
no. probably should have.

would have likely stopped it engaging to the rachet gear on the main shaft for kick starting.
which is exactly what it did.

Did you lube the bushing during assembly?
no. will hit it with some assembly lube next time.

I cheat also and run 90 gear oil, which is about the same as 60 wt motor oil.
ok
 
#29 ·
Credit goes to the original poster in the HD forums.

GL5 Gear Oil - Is It Safe To Use In the Sporty? - ANSWERED
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GL5 Gear Oil - Is It Safe To Use In the Sporty? - ANSWERED
#1
cHarley's AvatarcHarley , 09-03-2012 06:01 PM
FIRST - THIS IS NOT AN OIL DEBATE THREAD
If you want to use Motor Oil, ATF, or cat **** in your gearbox knock yourself out.
If you have a Big Twin, this isn't really applicable to you.

There has been much discussion and debate in the past few years over the use of GL5 Gear Oil in the Sportster Primary/Tranny. This debate centers around warnings that GL5 Gear Oil is corrosive and that it can damage what are known a "yellow" metal parts. Unlike the Big Twins, our Sportsters have a shared primary/tranny and that means that the stator (copper) and clutch spring plate (brass rivets) can be damaged if a corrosive lubricant is used in our application.

The question over the safety of GL5 has been hard to nail down because many of the manufactures will give out conflicting information depending on who you talk to, even within the same company.

WHY is this such a hard question for the oil companies to answer with factual data and WHY is it so hard to find a real answer to the question? The answer is really pretty simple.

Anyone who has spent time studying oil knows about the myriad of various ratings that are applicable for any particular lubricant, from JASO, CF, MIL, etc. The number of different tests that can be done on oil run well into the hundreds, so oil testing by the manufacturer is typically limited to those tests that are applicable to the oils intended use.

So why is it so difficult to get answers to the GL5 corrosive question? It's rather quite simple. Because GL5 is made for use in hypoid gearboxes which by nature don't contain yellow metals, so most manufactures don't perform the standard ASTM D-130 corrosive test on GL5 lubricants.

After quite a bit of digging, it turns out that spAmsoil has actually done ASTM D-130 testing on a number of common/popular GL-5 Gear Oils.

ASTM D-130 ratings fall on a scale going from 1A (least corrosive) to 4C (most corrosive) From a corrosive standpoint, an oil with a 1A or 1B rating is considered safe.

ASTM D-130 ASTM D-4048 FTM-5309 "Detection of Copper Corrosion from Petroleum Products by the Copper Strip Tarnish Test"
A variety of hydrocarbon products including oils, hydraulic fluids, fuel, solvents, etc., can be tested for corrosivity to copper by use of this test. It is limited to products with Ried Vapor pressure no greater than 18 psi (124 kPa). A polished copper strip is immersed in the fluid and heated for a specified time and temperature after which the corrosion is rated by visual comparison to the ASTM Copper Strip Corrosion Standards. The most typical test run is for 24 hours @ 100°C. However, time and temperature can vary according to product type and specification. Results are reported as a number followed by a letter according to the following scheme:

1a slight tarnish a light orange, almost the same as a freshly polished strip
1b dark orange
2a moderate tarnish a claret red
2b lavender
2c multi colored with lavender blue or silver, or both, overlaid on claret red
2d silvery
2e brassy or gold
3a dark tarnish a magenta overcast on brassy strip
3b multi colored with red and green showing (peacock), but no gray
4a corrosion a transparent black, dark gray or brown with peacock green barley showing
4b graphite or lusterless black
4c glossy or jet black

(The ASTM Copper Strip Corrosion Standard is a color reproduction of strips which have the above description.)

The following is the latest product list I could find that has undergone ASTM D-130 testing.

SAFE GL-5 Oils
Amsoil M/T Fluid MTF..5W-30.............. 1A Light Orange
Red Line MT-90.......75W-90 GL4......... 1A Light Orange
Amsoil Long Life FGR 75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Amsoil Severe Gr SVG 75W-90 GL5....... 1B Dark Orange
Amsoil MT & Gear MTG 75W-90 GL4...... 1B Dark Orange
Mobil 1 Synthetic....75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Castrol Hypoy C......80W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Castrol SYNTEC.......75W-90 GL5........ 1B Dark Orange
Citgo Citgear Std XD 75W-90 GL4........ 1B Dark Orange
GM Synthetic Axle....75W-90 GL5........ 1B Dark Orange
Pennzoil Gearplus....80W-90 GL5.......... 1B Dark Orange
Pennzoil Synthetic...75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Red Line NS Gear Oil 75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Red Line 75W90 GL-5..75W-90 GL5....... 1B Dark Orange
Torco SGO Syn G LS....75W-90 GL5...... 1B Dark Orange
Valvoline High Perf..80W-90 GL5........... 1B Dark Orange
Valvoline SynPower...75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange

MARGINAL GL-5 Oils
Delo Gear Lubric ESI 80W-90 GL5.......... 2A Claret Red
Delo Trans Fluid ESI 50W..................... 2A Claret Red

UNSAFE GL-5 Oils
Royal Purple MaxGear 75W-90 GL5......... 4A Trans Black
Mopar Syn LS additive..75W-90 GL5....... 4A Trans Black
Lucas 75/90 Synthetic75W-90 GL5......... 4B Graphite Blk
 
#34 ·
got everything cleaned out.
New Baker gears showed up yesterday.
Started playing with everything again.
Inner ratchet gear fits/slides nicely

...until you put the spring behind it. The spring seems to be putting some side load on the gear. Not a lot, but it doesn't slide as freely as it does without the spring. Going to go ahead and swap out the spring for a new one and see if that helps. Everything else seems to be in good order, but i'm not gonna try anything until i have that new spring.
 
#35 ·
the timing of the kicker ratchet to your new kicker gear has to be so it unattaches it from the gear or it will do it again

i have seen the end spud on the main shaft bent from a stroker extra long kicker or a 350 pound guy with an attitude - did you put a dial on it and turn it .001 to maybe .002 more then that it wants to wear quickly seen them .010
 
#36 ·
the timing of the kicker ratchet to your new kicker gear has to be so it unattaches it from the gear or it will do it again

i have seen the end spud on the main shaft bent from a stroker extra long kicker or a 350 pound guy with an attitude - did you put a dial on it and turn it .001 to maybe .002 more then that it wants to wear quickly seen them .010
not sure if i understand your questions, but...

i am confident kicker was indexed correctly the second go around. Have not assembled anything with the new parts yet...

i have a standard length kicker, and weight 175 lbs, so i highly doubt that's the issue.

i put a dial indicator on the main shaft, .0015 at most
 
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