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Old 07-26-2009, 11:15 AM   #1
'51plymouth
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Default Welders...be careful.

My Pop emailed me this, since he knows I like to weld on shit and he'd like me to outlive him. I normally don't throw these "safety nazi" things around since I feel that we have too much nanny-state bullshit anyway, but this one made me think. Click the link, it's about brake cleaner and welding fumes...

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

be safe.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:22 AM   #2
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Dragon,Maybe this one is "Sticky" worthy?
Shop Safety "sticky.."
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:23 AM   #3
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

damn!
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:33 AM   #4
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

read that on the HAMB yesterday and immediately walked out and read the back of my brake cleaner cans. Really makes you take a step back for a second and think.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:36 AM   #5
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

wow ..... thats a bit scary - Thanks for posting that
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:37 AM   #6
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

good reminder!
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:38 AM   #7
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Damn, I'm glad he was smart enough to do the research. He has a wealth of knowledge, and I enjoy reading his articles in Cycle Source.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:38 AM   #8
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

I'm speachless!
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Two of my favorite things
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Thanks guys for reading that. Please spread it around!!!!
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

I'm pretty sure that spray paint fumes and welding in a close area can produce some form or nerve gas as well. lets be careful guys. bikes wont do us any good six feet under.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewdude View Post
Thanks guys for reading that. Please spread it around!!!!
Thanks for writing it. Good to see you're alive...
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Fuct!
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

yep, if you read the warnings on the can especially cleaners chlorinated or not have several health issues. I now try to use in most circumstances soap and hot water. The main health issue I see with that is my hands are now nice and clean so I look like a poser
Thanks goes to American Iron for doing the article! Please email them also and tell them thanks!

Last edited by brewdude; 07-26-2009 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

I work at a pretty big Gov. owned Lab. Im in the machine shop portion,and the welders are right next door. When I read that a couple weeks ago (while at work), I made about a dozen copies and brought them to those guys. All the guys read it (much to my suprise) and they were all talking about it (which was the hole point!)
The one question raised , was about the reaction to the argon gas. They all agreed and pointed out Argon is totaly inert and dosent mixx w/ anything. Im not no where near smart enough to try and dicuss things like that so I just said ,oh yeah, huh?

Definetly glad to hear You survived! Has your health recoverd more, I hope?

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Old 07-26-2009, 12:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewdude View Post
Thanks goes to American Iron for doing the article! Please email them also and tell them thanks!
hopefully they will see this thread and see that the word is being spread

Jeff
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

when the cleaner is heated in normally turns to hydrogen Chloride which is bad enough. Because it is heated in an argon environment the cleaner doesn't burn off the same way because the argon is inert and now the cleaner turns to hydrogen chloride and phosgene.
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:09 PM   #18
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

and phosgene gas, normally used to be a huge danger for folks smoking and working on old freon pumps, is absolutly deadly at 1 part per million inside your lungs. You most likely got a slight noseful of the hydrogen chloride, and damn lucky you did not get the same ammount of phosgene.

All the old navy guys and most of the newer ones know about working in voids and proper ventalation due to the build up of these gasses.

Hope you continue to get better, and go buy a lotto ticket!!
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:12 PM   #19
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewdude View Post
when the cleaner is heated in normally turns to hydrogen Chloride which is bad enough. Because it is heated in an argon environment the cleaner doesn't burn off the same way because the argon is inert and now the cleaner turns to hydrogen chloride and phosgene.
I will definetly pass that extra info on to the guys tommorrow, Thanks

Jeff
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Yeh, I never used breack cleen intill fly used it all the time, back to carb cleener for me....Roach.
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

have you looked up what the chemicals in carb cleaner do? not as bad but still very BAD!
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Old 07-26-2009, 03:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewdude View Post
have you looked up what the chemicals in carb cleaner do? not as bad but still very BAD!
No shit...all that stuff is nasty. A few years back I got zinc'd from welding on some galvanized (it was painted, so when I ground off the paint, you couldn't see the galvanization)...got poisoned sooo fuckin bad. Ever since then my metal prep process has gone: wire wheel, engine degreaser, soap & water, soap & water again, compressed air, wire wheel...then weld. Now the only thing that's gonna kill me is the welding fumes, and all my other vices...
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Old 07-26-2009, 04:07 PM   #23
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Guess its time to go Back to sniffin glue. Just kidding, that's good info, thanks.
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

This makes me think, what is the "proper way" to clean metal before I weld it?

Is there a "natural" or sure fire way to make sure I am not baking horrible gas into my lungs?
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:46 PM   #25
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

this is going to be printed out and put on everyones bench come tomarrow morning, HUGE eye opener, thanks for posting this.
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Old 07-26-2009, 06:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

wow,

i use brake and carb cleaner, and weld everyday..
definite word up on that. word up.
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Old 07-26-2009, 07:43 PM   #27
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Thank you. Ive done it & been lucky I guess.
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Old 07-26-2009, 07:55 PM   #28
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewdude View Post
Thanks guys for reading that. Please spread it around!!!!

no,,,,THANK YOU brewdude. happy to see you survived that ordeal. always good to be vertical and functional as long as we can. another reminder that we have to be careful out there and watch your ass.


peace thru superior fire power!
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Old 07-26-2009, 08:28 PM   #29
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

The site is slow and being hammered, so here's a mirror
http://vorhese.com/gallery/albums/album09/87c8ee40.jpg
http://vorhese.com/gallery/albums/album09/87af4fc0.jpg
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Wow! Just the other day my friend was using some prior to welding, non chlorinated but still. Until recently I had never seen anyone use brake cleaner for prep. I worked at a shop that always used denatured alcohol to clean metal, probably just as bad. Thank you Brew and 51plym.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:15 PM   #31
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

I am printing a copy of this for my friends. That is scary. Its strange when you realize you have become complacent. Still try my best to wear gloves while working with chemicals including carb/break cleaner. Thanks for the article and I hope you are doing well. Thanks again for passing on this article.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:59 PM   #32
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

I use Acetone. I may have used laquer thinner a few times when I was out
of Acetone. I also use both of these for cleaning rotors when I do My brakes.
So glad I dont have any brake cleaner lying around. Thanks for the Post!

Besides the danger of welding gases reacting to chemicals, Another
bad thing is to MIX chemicals, for instance Bleach mixed with Amonia will give off deadly fumes.
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:20 AM   #33
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

just went through a similar situation last week .....i had a trophy to make for a hot rod show , i won the bad ass award last year for my hot rod stude pickup and we decided that the winner of the award is to make and present the award for the following years winner . i waited till the last minute of course and dug out a few old motor parts, piston and rod , some valves,rockers etc.etc. they were all covered in oil and i just sprayed em down with some brake cleaner and started welding em together . the fumes were terrible , my eyes were watering and nose running , i had all doors open in shop and exhaust fan going but didn't really help . i needed to get it done so i kept going !!!, here is where my story is very different , fortunately, i only felt like shit for an hour or so. afterwards i decided i would never do it again anyway , but after reading this story i realize i was extremely lucky.

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Old 07-27-2009, 10:49 AM   #34
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Thats crazy! Thanks for posting the info and glad you are still alive brewdude. I use this stuff called Speed Degreaser from Finish Line, works great. But need to check the label.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Intheslime wrote:
"I worked at a shop that always used denatured alcohol to clean metal, probably just as bad."
Actually, not to worry-It's fine stuff if you don't drink it. Really quite non-toxic compared to the alternatives..
If anybody's "curious" about what they're using all product mfgrs are required to do "Material Safety Data Sheets' on the stuff they make.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:12 PM   #36
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Alcohol was my thought as well - safe for skin contact, and if you burn it, the fumes won't kill you.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:59 PM   #37
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Any word on how he is doing? Changed my brakes on my truck the other day (102 deg) and some of that shit went in my eye.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:02 PM   #38
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

^^^^^^^^^ yea I sprayed a pretty good shot of that in my eye once ( carb cleaner that is ) started eating the contact i was wearing and even after flushing my eye with the sprayer on the kitchen sink for who knows how long .. my vision was allllllll messed up for about 30 some odd hours give or take I wear safety glasses ALL the time now even if im just spinning a wrench those glasses become pretty damn cool when you have a sprayer blasting in your eye because you think your about to go half blind..
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:05 PM   #39
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wompy5000 View Post
Any word on how he is doing? Changed my brakes on my truck the other day (102 deg) and some of that shit went in my eye.
He posted on first page.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wompy5000 View Post
Any word on how he is doing? Changed my brakes on my truck the other day (102 deg) and some of that shit went in my eye.
I don't think you can can yourself a proper mechanic until you spray a load of brake cleaner in your eye.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:03 PM   #41
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Great information, We are used to the typical "cover their ass" warnings the lawyers put on all the cans and forget how dangerous some of this stuff is. Maybe a warning like this would get our attention:

"Breathing this shit WILL cause impotence, baldness, loss of ability to taste beer and dick shrinkage. Absorbance through the skin WILL cause your pecker to fall completely off". Use at your own risk.
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:15 PM   #42
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Will definitely pass this on...
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:32 PM   #43
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

I just dont understand why someone was even useing a chemical to clean before welding. I have been a welder for 7 years and have been doing it professionally for 3 years. Never once have I used a chemical to "prep" for welding. If it is oily, I clean with dish soap. All I have ever used is abrasives. A good weld is a clean weld and a clean weld is created with no contaminates.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:46 PM   #44
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Thank you for posting this. I've worked as a welder for almost 10 years and I had no idea of that hazard. I've had galv/metal poisoning a few times from welding inside of infectious control barriers at hospitals (without an APR), and shrugged it off when the chills/nausea/fever/etc. went away. Then I started taking OSHA classes and in my respiratory protection class, I found out about manganese poisoning (manganism) and it scared the shit out of me. I've had every damn symptom for years and never realized it. I'm not welding for a living any more, and most of the symptoms eventually subsided, but I do wonder about the long term effects. If you're going to weld, be aware of the potential dangers, however small you think the risk is. And if you're welding galvanized, make sure your respirator is a NIOSH approved APR (P100 is best)- not a dust mask.
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Old 07-30-2009, 01:52 AM   #45
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

also tig welding amd brass rod, creates the same compounds as nerve gas...
one inhale and its over...silicone brass is okay...not brass rod fro brazing though
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:16 AM   #46
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

This stuff scares me.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:21 AM   #47
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Wow! Thanks! I use brake cleaner a lot to weld. Not anymore! I will definitely be more careful in the future!
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:39 PM   #48
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcs64 View Post
hopefully they will see this thread and see that the word is being spread

Jeff
Yup, I read it here and a few other places. We are getting a terrific response to this article and feel this kind of info must be shared. Thanks Brew Dude for telling us about it so we can further spread the word.
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:41 PM   #49
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by '51plymouth View Post
No shit...all that stuff is nasty. A few years back I got zinc'd from welding on some galvanized (it was painted, so when I ground off the paint, you couldn't see the galvanization)...got poisoned sooo fuckin bad. Ever since then my metal prep process has gone: wire wheel, engine degreaser, soap & water, soap & water again, compressed air, wire wheel...then weld. Now the only thing that's gonna kill me is the welding fumes, and all my other vices...
If I weld on aluminized exhaust pipe, can that also poison me like galvanized? is zinc in both of them?

I need to know before I get my exhaust bends in and build my exhaust. (I'm not even sure they'll be aluminized, I just read that a lot of exhaust pipe is....)
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Old 08-01-2009, 06:26 PM   #50
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopperkid13 View Post
I just dont understand why someone was even useing a chemical to clean before welding. I have been a welder for 7 years and have been doing it professionally for 3 years. Never once have I used a chemical to "prep" for welding. If it is oily, I clean with dish soap. All I have ever used is abrasives. A good weld is a clean weld and a clean weld is created with no contaminates.
What process are you using mostly?
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Old 08-01-2009, 06:38 PM   #51
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

A few years ago I had double vision, dizzy spells, etc etc etc....I've had doctors check me out and just guess what the problem is, but they really don't know.....I DO know chemicals are the cause, from doing heavy collision repair and painting for years. EVERYTHING chemical that we use is bad news, especially when welding over it. Read the labels...it'll freak ya out.
Brew...thanks for telling the story....I'm sure you will save some lives....either now, or later.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:06 AM   #52
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

That is no joke, my father was a welder and He breathed in everything bad in his 30 years.... went to his mind.. He started to forget normal everyday things, and kept getting worse until he passed away at 50 from demensia that finally shut down his motor skills... f'n scary what you breath in when welding...
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Old 08-02-2009, 04:48 AM   #53
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

I got Galvanised a few years ago welding double Gal beams, pains in the chest, dizzy and thought I was going to throw up, thought I was having a heart attack, it was that bad I went to the doctor, couldn't drive, fuck me up for about 3 day's, now all welding is done in a well ventilated environment with the least amount of leaning over close to the work, once bitten twice shy, you gotta stay alert guys and we need more lert's around here !
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:51 AM   #54
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Quote:
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What process are you using mostly?
MIG and TIG. I will sand blast, glass bead, sand, grind or use whatever abrasive is most appropriate for whatever Im welding. I would understand why someone would use a chemical to prep, but think about it...heating that chemical that you are using to prep to 1,000s of degrees...cant be good. There isnt a chemical in the world I would heat up like that and breath in its fumes. I wouldnt even want to breath the fumes from burning dish soap.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:17 PM   #55
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Steve, thanks for writing that article, sorry what you had to go through to learn it tho..glad you are still among us.

I sent the story out to our other 5 terminals so the shop guys could see it.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:54 PM   #56
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

It's a really shocking story and I winced at what Brewdude has gone thru - hope he continues to recover. What is equally shocking is how close I have come to doing the same thing - although at the time I was completely ignorant of the risk: that was at the start of my welding career - after I got more confident I stopped faffing around cleaning everything - I just dry clean the area with some wire wool actually and it seems to work fine. I have watched folk spray WD40 on welds to make them look shiny - then weld right next to the sprayed area! It's a frickin wonder any of us are still breathing really..!
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Old 10-31-2009, 10:50 PM   #57
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

I've used Acetone in the past, but screw that, i aint using shit but abrasives and soap and water from now on... I've only been welding a few years just brackets, struts, small stuff etc... You all are scaring the shit out of me
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:39 AM   #58
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Thanks for posting this, I'm gonna burn a bunch of copies and drop them off at the Tech school I get my drops from.
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Old 11-01-2009, 11:32 AM   #59
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

wow i was un aware of that my self, i printed it out and put it on everybodys toolboxes. the amount of knowledge steve has is amazing and it would be terrible to lose him,
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Old 11-01-2009, 11:54 AM   #60
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

i know my lungs are fucked ,i've been a metallshaper /welder for over 20 yrs now
(and i smoke) .....i just know the welding has a lot to do with my health issues
it gave me a kind of astma
and i know for a fact ...that the symtoms in this story are the same i had on several occasions

thanks man for the link ...i will be thinkin about my future welding jobs
i normaly use brake cleaner too for "old greasy" metall >before welding
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:34 PM   #61
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Phosgene is produced when refrigerants are ignited as well (at least that's what they tell you in fire school). That shit is bad mojo. Thanks for sharing- gonna pass it along to the rescue fags at work- they use petrogen to cut around cars sometimes, I would imagine the same effect is produced.

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Old 11-01-2009, 12:43 PM   #62
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

Phosgene is some bad shit! one of my good friends dad was exposed to phosgene at the chemical plant he worked at. he died 48 hours later.
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:03 PM   #63
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Default Re: Welders...be careful.

A refresher.....or for those who just picked up on the later part of the thread.

And here is the .jpg as a link if you want to open separately and print the article -

http://www.brewracingframes.com/87c8ee40.jpg





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