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Old 04-22-2019, 04:40 PM   #1
Ratso
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Default Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

I apologize for this windy, near-interminable first post. I'd like to get schooled about the uses, good/bad characteristics, and whatever else you expert guys want to say about brazing and bronze welding -- specifically in frame building, but I bet there are many applications, etc., that I don't know to ask about.

Despite his casual conflation of b'ing and b'w'ing, this guy's video seems real good to me. He's havin' fun!


Okay, here comes the interminable blather part:

Many of the pro welders I've asked really don't see the point of brazing or bronze welding, at least certainly not for something like building a tubular steel bike frame. I gather that their question is: Why mess around "gluing" steel to steel when you can take >two pieces and literally make them one, with heat alone or heat plus filler rod of the parent material.

But I've seen the work of some justifiably famous British builders of classic-era race bikes; these guys tend to do exactly what my welding information sources wouldn't do. They bronze-weld their frames, or make complex "castings" -- fabbed, not cast, but for want of a better word -- stick frame tubes in them, and braze the joins. Their bikes win races, and don't fall apart.

My limited understanding is that, by working well below steel's melting point, these welders (braziers?) get around the problem of creating molecular chaos in the steel at and near the weld/braze. I think (or imagine, going on very little hard information) there are other pretty big benefits as well: lighter weight; relatively easy to heat up, pull apart, and relocate (so, good for prototyping); a way to show off their beautiful work. (Again ostensibly for weight savings, these guys run their bikes bare-frame; the contrast of shiny yellow bronze fillets with shiny polished steel looks impressive as hell to me.)

Then there's versatility, since with bronze welding one can stick all kindsa dissimilar and/or hard-to-weld materials together. And I am sure there are plenty more aspects of the craft that I don't even know to describe but would find very interesting. Maybe some other J.J. characters would be interested too. ... ?

Thanks to anyone who feels like enlightening me a little.
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

There used to be a video on the net of some guys in the country side of England who had a shop where they still build featherbed frames most notably to me for Sportster motors. I think they call it a Norley or something like that. I wish I could post the link but I’ve lost it. I do remember they OA brazed the joints giving the reasons you site. That’s how they were put together back in the day, being one but I think it had more to do with the material they were using. It was DOM chromoly tube but I don’t remember the number. The main guy said every welder in the shop had learned from the same old man there. He also stated that if you got it to hot the joint would be like a wet noodle and too cold it would be too brittle. Or maybe I have that backwards? Either way I think the benefits of brazing are similar to tig welding versus a mig or stick weld. If done properly they bothe temper the base metal and don’t cause as much distortion mig welding. Or maybe I mean anneal? Getting old sucks. If anybody knows the shop or the link to the video about them I woulda appreciate you posting it . And Ratso I love this shit too. Something about chasing the perfect weld thrills me. Hard telling how many miles of bead I’ve laid down and I’m never satisfied!!! But I’ve gotten the closest while tig welding.
As a side note about the strength of brazing, it’s been less than twenty years ago that the C pillar to roof seam was brazed on the best selling , safest car in the world. And they did it in 54 seconds, every time.
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Old 04-22-2019, 06:02 PM   #3
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

I can not speak from experience with tig brazing with bronze. I have never have had a need to. I have done a lot of Ox Acetylene brazing, with bronze, brass, silver, and cast iron fillers. Brazing was the method of choice before electric welding was perfected. It continued on well beyond then, also. I guess that was a case of why screw with what works.
Link to Jodie for some more info.
http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...g-brazing.html
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Old 04-22-2019, 06:18 PM   #4
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Default Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Thanks Ratso, good topic. This is one of those subjects Iíve always been curious about, but was afraid to ask in case everyone else already knew...

I hope Thefrenchowl drops in, he knows a thing or two about this.

I think you mean these guys KC, but I canít see any pics of frame manufacture.

https://www.norleycaferacer.com/index.php

Is brazing still taught in Ďshopí class in the US? I know it is here, but the vast majority of teachers donít know how to do it. I was better at it than my teacher 20 years ago, but he was too lazy to clean the metal properly.

Are there formal tests for brazing like you have ANSI certification with welding?

Iíve been TIG welding about 3 years, only MIG before that, some oxy, but not enough to get good. The thing that strikes me most about TIG is itís so, so easy to get a stupid amount of heat into a joint - to the point where I still wouldnít feel confident to do any sort of major structural work where a failed weld could result in, well, death. (Yet, it can still look pretty.) Iím too impatient to let a joint cool down between runs, and a lot of planning is involved to prevent warping.

With brazing (it seems?), the parent metal never reaches that scary temperature, and when you do hit the target temp, itís all over in a few seconds.

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Old 04-22-2019, 06:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

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Originally Posted by joe49 View Post
Brazing was the method of choice before electric welding was perfected. [/URL]
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Is brazing still taught in Ďshopí class in the US?
TIG is what's taught in the schools that I know of. I think Joe's response is why you don't see much of brazing anymore.
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

About three hundred years ago, when I first took some welding classes, stick was all I got taught. TIG was considered exotic and, I think, viewed with suspicion. At that time (in fact, c. 1973-4), I asked if I could learn O/A and the instructors sort of laughed at the idea: it was a process with no future, they believed.

Ten years ago I took more classes at a local JC. Once again I got taught how to stick weld, then to dribble gobs of filler everywhere with a MIG setup. The next level was to be TIG. I asked could I learn how to bronze weld with O/A instead, or first, and how to use an O/A rig more generally. The instructor sneered at the idea and basically turned his back: TIG was where it was at, brass was for arteests.

I didn't mind. While he was a real good welder, he was a lousy teacher. And being ignored, I was free to fool around with torches and to waste as much brass rod as I liked. Ultimately hadn't gotten much of anywhere with it, though, before I moved house and dropped the classes.

KC and Joe and y'all, glad you're interested. By no means am I interested in TIG brazing only. I'm at least as curious about O/A.

Cooks, one English frame builder I was thinking of in particular was Fred Walmsley, who died a couple of years ago. He built repro Manxes and G50s in his own frames. I couldn't find very good images of his work online to show here, but the guy was famous in classic bike racing. I shall now view whatever's at Joe's link.

Thanks again. More please.
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

I learnt stick and O/A in school. My education on brazing came from an old timer in the generator repair shop I part timed in. We were brazing cast iron nosecones for locomotive starters. When those big muthas kick back, they break. It is an art.

Like aluminum, prep and pre heating is key.
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Ha, that was my first exposure to a beautiful brazing job. Nosecone on my BMW starter broke. Ken Augustine fixed it and was happy to let me watch.

That "Welding Tips & Tricks" site that Joe49 stuck in his post is swell and confusing to me in equal measure. For one thing, I think the writer is writing for people who are already well familiar with TIG. But also there's this weird caution:

“if you are not careful, its pretty easy to melt some of the steel base metal into the weld or braze metal.”

WTF? The para just before that statement says BWing takes place at 1800-1900į, steel melts @ ~2700.

For brevity's sake, can I just call the processes "brazing" even when I sometimes mean "bronze welding"?
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:07 AM   #9
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

YEARS AGO I worked in a auto restoration shop... we always had high end exotics in, mostly older stuff. Jags, Mazersttis, Auston Martin....basically European stuff. I got my fist hand look at the front end of s Jags birdcage construction, and was told it was "brazed" not welded... I noticed the "gold" color of the joints, my boss had a old one (wrecked) and he told me to grind off the weld... low and behold I found the two pipes weren't REALY welded (the way I knew it should be).. he explained how the braze bonds to the metals (basically like a bad ass glue) and that it can actually be stronger than a weld... This made more sense to me when I got into the marine industry (epoxies, and such).
Think about it, tig is basically a "new" form compared to brazing... oxy torches have been part of the industrial revolution and a staple in the steel industry, cheap, portable and need little "equiptment" (tanks, regulators, hoses, torch, shield).. mig and tig .. first you need a source of electricity to start with, gas, regulator, torch..oh the welder itself.. then it was expensive and big... (untill recently).
I think of it kinda like.. carborators to fuel injection..
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:34 AM   #10
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Welding forums, Weldingweb in particular, are excellent sources for brazing info.

Many hobbyists don't know or forget that if you want to be proficient at welding or brazing you need to practice for many hours and do so in a repetitive manner to build correct movements into habits. It's fun and well worth it, so do it!

Welding/brazing is a perishable skill. Even professional pipe weldors practice between contracts to stay sharp. If you've not done it for a while, don't be embarrassed by practicing before you repair or build something. The fuel and time is not wasted!

Brazed joints can be tough and resist shock loads well. I use to braze steel rule dies for cutting synthetic fabrics at a toy company. (Picture a metal cookie cutter with sharpened cutting edges.) Mechanical presses forced the dies through the fabric into a hardwood table. When a die bent we'd melt the braze and replace the part. This was MUCH easier than grinding out a weld buried inside a cookie cutter, and most failures were parent metal, not the braze.

Every mechanic should have an OA outfit for heating and cutting. Brazing and welding only require appropriate heating tips so give it a shot! Gas welding light sheet metal in particular is where OA really shines. There's good reason jeweler's use torches.

I prefer older US made torches and got many via Ebay, auctions and yard sales. When I learned to use a torch I fell in lust so I collected to learn the differences. Torches are like firearms, with users having specific ergonomic preferences. I pressure test my torches (CO2 or nitrogen, NOT oxygen and fuel gas!) and nearly all of the 1930s/40s torches passed with flying colors. They're easy to reseal etc. if needed.

The Oxwelder's Handbook is a great read from the days when OA was king. I have many of the torches shown and all are plentiful online. Pics for reference, 1939 edition preferred:

https://weldingweb.com/showthread.ph...-Ebay-not-mine

Brazing can attach cast iron to steel should you need that option for a custom frame.

Interesting Norton-related brazing discussion with filler info:

https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonC...-frames.21697/

OA welding works very well on aluminum. TIG was invented near the beginning of WWII so most aluminum and steel sheet metal was gas welded.


MIG brazing is often used for collision repair on modern automobile alloys. The wire isn't cheap (I bought a roll to learn with) but you can also use it for finer torch brazing.. Many commonly stocked brazing rods are too thick for light stock.

https://www.millerwelds.com/resource...brazing-basics

For some fun spend a day practicing one process on clean scrap. Say braze for a day, OA weld for day, etc. Don't work on actual projects until you're comfortable, just play and learn.

https://weldingweb.com/forumdisplay....y-Fuel-Welding
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:21 AM   #11
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

I picked up a "Cobra-Henrob" pistol style torch.. I LOVE that thing.. it can be tough to dial it at first (u should use large bottles)...but I love the fact that the welds stay "soft" and workable.
I purchased a "Pin gun".. the ones that weld pins onto metal instead of drilling.. well I discovered when using this on a thin motorcycle tank to pull dents..,the small amount of metal around the "pin" became hard and brittle..so much when the dents were pulled it created micro cracks and very slow small leaks.. I corrected it by using silver solder to fill the cracks..
But lately I started to braze copper to tanks and pull them that way..just last week I used coat hangers and my small torch.. no brazing.. dents pulled easily and no cracks or "tearing" the parent metal...
But agreed... practice practice practice..
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Even when supported in a jig, a part (say a motorcycle frame, for arguments sake) needs careful thought as to the order of placing welds / profile / a plethora of other considerations, to avoid stressing parts of the assembly, right? Iíve watched professional weldors set work up unsupported, and using pure skill and experience place the parts deliberately out of true on the bench, as they know how much the joint will move when the cooling metal contracts. Again, it all Ďlooksí good in the end, but what unknown stresses exist within the assembly? Especially a one off racing frame that might only be tested to destruction on the track - unlike factory frames which are deliberately smashed to see how they behave (I understand the Germans love this, they smash practically everything).

With brazing, I somehow imagined that if everything fits well you just get on with Ďgluingí it together - or is the same level of planning required? Is this one of the reasons brazing is still preferred by some frame specialists? I feel like Iím somehow stating the obvious, but I must be wrong since the consensus so far seems to be that this process has no advantage over welding, especially TIG, and itís simply outdated.

What I was thinking is that perhaps the strength of a good frame isnít so much in the joints, but in the design?

Are welded frames somehow normalised (I donít know if thatís the right term) afterwards?
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

“if you are not careful, its pretty easy to melt some of the steel base metal into the weld or braze metal.”

Yes it is. This is also a case for Cherry Red in the base metal, get into orange is the beginning of the braze combining with the base metal. Yellow or white an you can throw it out. You have ruined it. Orange and yellow is welding temp, white is destroying the metal. At white the metal is scaling and burning. A caveat is you can forge weld at white heat with high temp flux.
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Farmall, thanks for the great informative post. I'm having trouble getting to the sites you kindly mentioned -- even Weldingweb has got something buggering up its registration process -- but I'll figure that stuff out.

You said, "Brazing and welding only require appropriate heating tips so give it a shot!"

Well shit, that's interesting. Not something my instructor saw fit to mention (maybe he didn't know) when he got me half-assedly set up to mess around with brass. For sure, I was using the same tips that were used for welding steel with steel. What might you be talking about in re "appropriate tips"?

Cookie: "the consensus so far seems to be that this process has no advantage over welding, especially TIG, and it’s simply outdated."

Huh. While, yeah, that is what I've mostly heard from production-type welders -- guys who spend days on end hardfacing earthmover blades, and such -- it's not what I'm reading in this thread. I thought there was more to the subject than what I was getting told, and it seems as if that thought was correct, given all the good shit that people are contributing here.

Joe, I'm not arguing and I'll drop it if the question is too tiresome to pursue. But what confused me about that writer's "melting the workpiece" statement is the big difference between brass/bronze's melting temperature and that of steel. Or are you (and the writer) talking about bronze-welding aluminum?

This kind of sort of indirectly relates to the grousing I've read in other threads about pulling apart brazed frames and trying to weld new tubes into the now-tubeless castings (say, that of a neck/steering head casting that you want to save while extending the downtubes). This grousing concerns leftover brass mixing into and contaminating (weakening) the new weld. It's clear that a heat increase of c. 700-800į isn't sufficient to, like, vaporize or otherwise eliminate that leftover brass. But how can it not be? ... If you see what I'm fumblingly trying to say.

The Henrob is a mighty interesting item, one that gives rise to forceful praise and damnation in equal measure, but unless it's just my ignorance talking, that is a subject for another thread. (And I know there are a couple of them in the JJ archives.)

Last edited by HD48FL; 04-23-2019 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Quote:
For sure, I was using the same tips that were used for welding steel with steel.
Those are correct, what matters is tip size. Not every torch kit has a variety. If they work, they work!

I tried a Henrob and found it rather heavy but some owners remove the handle halves and run them skeletonized. I have Victor, Smith, Purox/Oxweld/Linde/L-tec (same family), Harris and Airco torches already so I never pursued getting a Henrob to mod.

While I get good results like most users with my Victor 450 series regulators the preferred regulator style for OA is dual stage for more precise pressure regulation. Airco 8402 & 8456 regulators are famously good, readily available used (I don't buy new regulators) and can be rebuilt easily via your local welding supply or an online rebuilder. Of course Victor and Smith make excellent regulators too. Don't rush out to buy dual stage regulators but know they exist because you might fall into a set for next to nothing. Yard sale and flea market sellers rarely know what they have.
Quote:
This kind of sort of indirectly relates to the grousing I've read in other threads about pulling apart brazed frames and trying to weld new tubes into the now-tubeless castings (say, that of a neck/steering head casting that you want to save while extending the downtubes). This grousing concerns leftover brass mixing into and contaminating (weakening) the new weld. It's clear that a heat increase of c. 700-800į isn't sufficient to, like, vaporize or otherwise eliminate that leftover brass. But how can it not be? ... If you see what I'm fumblingly trying to say.
The answer is brazing instead of welding. The joints were brazed in the first place so not brazing them again suggest the weldor doesn't know how and complains instead of adapting. Some weldors are so locked into their preferred process they forget why other processes exist. That's childish. I'm not an expert weldor (and now my rotator cuff is trashed which really svcks!) but I'm not afraid to do what other millions of other men and women have done for more than a century. If a braze isn't right, melt the braze, clean the metal then do it again.

Pic shows the simple HD factory brazing setup. A table, some firebrick, a frame holding fixture and some torches with rosebud tips. It's nothing special. If anyone b1tches about not being able to braze that's their problem.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:23 AM   #16
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Yes, braze melts at a lower temp. But it doesn't magically vanish or become solid at a higher temp. If you continue to heat the base metal to it's melting point the two will coalesce, forming a shit alloy that is brittle.
How does this happen? Well braze metals melt at around 1000c, carbon steel at around 1300c. Now Oxy acetylene is around 3500c and tig is 6000c and can go over 30000c. Not hard to see it's easy to get to the point that both are flowing.
the colors in this link.
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Colors should be viewed in the shade not in sun light or under other bright lighting.
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Old 04-24-2019, 05:33 PM   #17
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

Hereís a pretty good video I came across


Would it be correct to say that a gas brazed joint will be stronger than a TIG brazed joint, as the material can flow into the joint?

Following all this with interest, but when Iíve looked into getting some gear to practise this process (gas) in the past Iíve just ended up confused with all the different types of torches and filler materials.
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Old 04-24-2019, 05:36 PM   #18
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Pic shows the simple HD factory brazing setup. A table, some firebrick, a frame holding fixture and some torches with rosebud tips. It's nothing special. If anyone b1tches about not being able to braze that's their problem.

Thatís what I meant in my earlier post - there doesnít seem to be very much holding the frame geometry true, compared to if you wanted to weld the joints.
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Old 04-25-2019, 04:17 AM   #19
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

I had a summer job in 1969 at a machine shop that was making bomb parts. My job was to chamfer a ~1.5" dia bushing that was brazed to a tube. That was done by sticking the tube into the bushing with a brass ring resting on my chamfer. Then a coil went over the assembly and the current came on. The heating was done by induction and was very quick. They looked nice, but just got blown up in the end.
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: Brazing, Bronze Welding School for Ignorant Rats

I darenít post a link, but a knowledgable member here recently set someone straight about HD frame assembly on another forum...which sort of answers my questions about holding frames for brazing. Apparently

ĎAll old K/iron head frames up to 81 are tack welded for positioning only on the jig, then silver brazed all round... Same for most of the bracketry that hangs to the frames.



Due to large surface patch, silver braze is usually stronger than bronze braze, itself stronger than weld...í

I hope I didnít break any rules or offend the member by pinching his words / photo, but Iím interested in hearing anything more if he happens to notice this.

Címon Patrick.
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