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Old 02-13-2013, 11:25 AM   #1
Dr. Benway
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Default Throwout bearing upgrade

Seeing wanderalone's thread made me think of something I've wanted to do for a while. I've got a '79 FX with a copwpie; inside that kicker cover is that wee little wafer throwout bearing.

I'd like to upgrade it to the big heavy bell style, is it a straight swap? Is ther any way to determine from the kicker cover itself, or is it one of those "try and see" situations?

What else is necessary for the swap, new clutch pushrod?
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:05 PM   #2
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

I tried to do the same a number of years back.

It involves a longer pushrod in the earlier, shouldered, style to account for the longer mainshaft. The turned down end of the rod seats in a hole in the "ice cream cone" style early throwout bearing.

The repop early bearing is pretty crappy. You can feel how rough the race surfaces are when you rotate it. This can lead to the rod spinning against the clutch adjuster screw (just what you don't want). If you can pick up a real HD early bearing at a swap, that'd be the move. They can be a little tough to find, at least down here.

It's not a plug & play deal either. Mine would not fit under the kicker cover on my '71 trans. Given the poor bearing quality and the fit problem, I abandoned it and went back to the wafer style.

I generally get a few years out of each wafer style setup.

I've read that the covers can be modified to clear the early bearing I just don't have the details. One of these years I'll mess around with mine and get it figured.

Incidentally, just did another TO bearing on my red & black pan. Slinger failed, not the bearing. Cheap stamped steel does not engage the rod properly.

Oh well.

Jason
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

Alright. So despite it's appearance, the wafer can probably stand up to a fair amount of use. After dealing with the early bearing, that wafer just seems so insubstantial.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

You can get a "heavy duty" thrust bearing that is a little bigger than stock.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

You could probably also get the bearing itself from Baker, since the early style is the kind they use in their 4 speed trannies.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

How's that conversion kit been in your experience? Fits okay and everything?
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:47 PM   #7
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

I don't know how mine was different than Jason's, but I have run the early style throwout bearings in every trans I have run, in both late ratchet top and cowpie trannies. Never had an issue with the bearing fitting in the cover, but I can't recall which covers I have run over the years. I know I have fit them in the stock cowpie electric start cover before. I ran the appropriate pushrod for the tranny year and just machined down the pushrod on the end to make sure it would stick in the bearing. I also would change out the clutch release finger to the early style one.

Those wafer ones suck balls, I fucking hate them. Jason is right about how shitty the standard repop early bearings are, you need to get OG ones. I have no experience with the "replica" early bearings, maybe those are better. Curious to know if anyone has experience with those.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

Doc:

if you do switch to the ice cream cone style, lemme know. Im averse to chinese parts and may have a spare HD one in my stash. Jason McElroy and I have a buddy who specifically schooled me on the difference between repop TO bearings and HD ones. There is a slight height difference between the 2 as well as the bearing difference.

Hit me up with an PM, if needed.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:31 PM   #9
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

Eastern makes a repop and the one I got from them through Drag Spec. was good.

Aftermarket covers or re-enforced covers are the ones where there is interference with the bearing. I found a stock cover and everything fit fine.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

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Originally Posted by Slabside Mike View Post
Eastern makes a repop and the one I got from them through Drag Spec. was good.

Aftermarket covers or re-enforced covers are the ones where there is interference with the bearing. I found a stock cover and everything fit fine.
This has been my experience also. The stock HD covers, will all take the cone TO bearing. The aftermarket "Heavy Duty" covers, have a web that beefs up the kicker area, and has to be relieved of some aluminum dust for the TOB to clear. Probably fit the AM non kicker covers as well, never had one without a kicker, so I can't say yes or no on that one.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

all the finned kick covers will take the big throwout bearing the smooth ones different story i can look at them and tell if they will fit but that aint doin you much good
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

I have an '84 cowpie, bone stock guts with an aftermarket kicker cover. I put around 60000 miles on it the last 13 years. Never had any issues with the stock throwout. Now that Ive said that, it'll probably crap out on my ride later today.
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

I would like for someone to tear a repop early style bearing apart...
What's in there anyway?
I have Not had a problem with the Stock "wafer" bearing, but on My Old shovel the throwout seems more substantial!
RP
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:18 AM   #14
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

stick with your plans get the big bearing those dime bearings are junk the oil slinger on them pukes bearing aint far far behind last dime bearing i used took a shit 20 miles from the house intersesting ride home no clutch hand jammer apes once ya get it goin no problem takin off from dead stop well first took some abuse that night
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

glad i changed mine a few years ago
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMcElroy View Post
I tried to do the same a number of years back.

It involves a longer pushrod in the earlier, shouldered, style to account for the longer mainshaft. The turned down end of the rod seats in a hole in the "ice cream cone" style early throwout bearing.

The repop early bearing is pretty crappy. You can feel how rough the race surfaces are when you rotate it. This can lead to the rod spinning against the clutch adjuster screw (just what you don't want). If you can pick up a real HD early bearing at a swap, that'd be the move. They can be a little tough to find, at least down here.

It's not a plug & play deal either. Mine would not fit under the kicker cover on my '71 trans. Given the poor bearing quality and the fit problem, I abandoned it and went back to the wafer style.

I generally get a few years out of each wafer style setup.

I've read that the covers can be modified to clear the early bearing I just don't have the details. One of these years I'll mess around with mine and get it figured.

Incidentally, just did another TO bearing on my red & black pan. Slinger failed, not the bearing. Cheap stamped steel does not engage the rod properly.

Oh well.

Jason
Sorry to dig up an old thread. Really hope someone is listening. I need to replace one of these and would really rather go with the cone style. Is there anyway to tell from looking at them an OEM from a repop? Any body know where I can find an OEM? Who makes the best repop out there? Thanks.

Pedro
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Old 01-06-2015, 08:57 AM   #17
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racepres View Post
I would like for someone to tear a repop early style bearing apart...
What's in there anyway?
I have Not had a problem with the Stock "wafer" bearing, but on My Old shovel the throwout seems more substantial!
RP
guess I'm a bit slow... here's a low quality repop opened up. the ball races are cut to shape with a dull tool, not ground and lapped...


Quote:
Originally Posted by rocktower View Post
Sorry to dig up an old thread. Really hope someone is listening. I need to replace one of these and would really rather go with the cone style. Is there anyway to tell from looking at them an OEM from a repop? Any body know where I can find an OEM? Who makes the best repop out there? Thanks.

Pedro
I have yet to see an oem bearing that had any black oxide treatment like the repop above has.

here's a look at the three types available. repop liberty bell type, the late oem and the aftermarket heavy duty type...


throw out bearing life depends on many things past what bearing is used.

lube quality and level in the trans is one problem. think about how the lube level is if the bike is on the side stand... if the engine is running, stand the bike up, do not let it run while on the side stand. the oil level will be lower than the bearing when leaned over to the left even slightly. the very best bearing without lube don't last long.

clutch adjustment is another issue. a fully loaded bearing will wear quicker than one that's just going for the ride. a properly working and adjusted clutch is a must. if there's no slack on the clutch pushrod, expect a worn throw out bearing rather quickly. and along that same line, don't hold the clutch released any longer than necessary.

another problem with the later type is the slinger. they are made of soft material. the small flats on the pushrod will quickly wear the slinger and punch right through them. improper pushrod adjustment will place the slingers side surface in contact with the release finger in the kicker cover. that rubbing action will speed up the rod punching through the slinger from years to days. I like to TIG weld the slinger to the push rod in a few spots and then true the bearing thrust surface in a lathe.

the later bearing will live a long life only when you understand all that may be going wrong and what to watch for. I'm betting that 9 out of 10 that fail is because something was over looked.
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Old 01-06-2015, 01:42 PM   #18
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

Most times we convert to the early style cone bearing very little grinding inside of kicker cover. I have seen very few of that style fail. That little wafer washer is always failing if a person over tightens clutch adjustment screw. Just my $0.02
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Old 03-02-2017, 07:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

back from the dead, with the early style do you still run the oil slinger?

the only parts manual I have shows the late style, going through recently purchased trans and theres no oil slinger inside.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: Throwout bearing upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
back from the dead, with the early style do you still run the oil slinger?
No.

The early style has little scoops stamped into the crimped steel retainer that holds the inner and outer races together. This dips into the transmission oil level (that you keep on top of, right?) and keeps the ball bearings lubed.

Jason
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