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Old 04-15-2020, 07:54 AM   #181
johnjzjz
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Default Re: 41 el

the manifold struggle has been around since they first installed them - then one day you get it and off you go - having a tool is the key to the endless hours wearing out all the threads is Everything < reason so many are so loose

govmule - developed a tool use his experience in this
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:25 AM   #182
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Default Re: 41 el

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Originally Posted by govmule84 View Post
I talked to Rhys on the phone about them. They're not in the thread.

I feel strongly about this problem. This intake design sucks mightily. I actually sell tester plates for two, three, and four-bolt carbs; you can find them in the jock shop.

That tells you if your intake is leaky. But if you see bubbles when you test, you still don't know the leak point... is it your sealing rings between your manifold and your nipples, or is it your nipple-to-head junction? (Those are metal-to-metal with no seals, and the interface differs quite a bit from flattie to Knuck to Pan. And of course there are 45s and Ks, too.)

So that tool I sell is the quick 'n' dirty way to test both. If you see leaks, though, making the next tool is as easy as pie... go buy you a rubber plug, drill it, and pull a TR-413 tire valve through it.

Then stuff it into each nipple and run air through, it repeating the test on both sides. If they hold, then you know your mani rings took a shit. If they leak, well... then you have a real motherfucker of a problem, which is getting those nipples to seal up. That's a whole separate topic with many words and opinions on the best way to do it.

This ain't a plug to hock my stuff (though my testers are the shit), it's just me trying to pass on info that took me a long time to muddle through.

Rhys, lovely fellow he is, told me he was gonna test this, and I just want to see his tester. Call it insurance on my part.
I'll send you a photo shortly sir! It's made of old hard cork, which is a press fit in to the head!

Pete, thanks for the suggestion regarding hylomar, I've bought some, awaiting it to come, how much do you recommend using?
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:34 AM   #183
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Default Re: 41 el

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjzjz View Post
the manifold struggle has been around since they first installed them - then one day you get it and off you go - having a tool is the key to the endless hours wearing out all the threads is Everything < reason so many are so loose

govmule - developed a tool use his experience in this
I'm fortunate I have a father who can machine with the best of them. I've got one for my mani and I've sent mule my one for the nipples!

Yeah, these manifolds are a real pain in the ass right? I mean the O ring on my panhead I probably had on and off 20 times, never once has a single issue!!
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:36 AM   #184
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Default Re: 41 el

Here's the photo he sent me, so you can all play along at home. To catch everyone up, Rhys found his leak because he was testing with the pushrods in and all the air that was being pumped in was just flying out the open valves.

NOTE THIS IS NOT MY TEST RIG... this is Rhys'.



I'd personally try rubber. I see a barb fitting on there, so I am presuming you're running a low-pressure reg into just clamped-on hose? I'd really like to see a video of you running this test, but without that being possible, here is my best guess as to what's happening and why your test results are showing false positives:

You're stuffing that in there and it's sealing and holding. However, that cork, due to its shape and depth, may be sealing the nipple rivet inadvertently. The rivet is a likely leak point.

At this point, a video of the test being performed would probably be of some help.
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:43 AM   #185
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Default Re: 41 el

Here. I ran down to the shop and snapped you (and NCMC47) a photo of my nipple test plugs. Knuck on the left, BT flattie on the right.



See how they taper? It purposely allows the nipple to leak if it's going to.

Also, I have no fuckin' clue how you'd be getting that to stay put at 18 pounds. With leak detection fluid all over the rubber plugs I have, I need two hands to keep them sealed. How the hell are you keeping that thing from popping out at that pressure?? (FWIW, I don't test mine quite so high, but even at 10 pounds she'd be poppin' out pretty good.)
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Old 04-15-2020, 10:00 AM   #186
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Default Re: 41 el

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhysmort View Post
Pete, thanks for the suggestion regarding hylomar, I've bought some, awaiting it to come, how much do you recommend using?
i spread it on the threads inside & out, enough to fill the threads but not so much that you cannot see them, when screwed in most will push itself out around the joint, i then use my finger to smooth out the excess into a small bead all around the joint so it is not really too visible, it is too thick to be sucked in by the negative pressure inside the manifold when running, & never had it being blown out from internal positive pressure as there shouldn't be any unless the cam timing is way out of sync.
on Ironhead & Shovels with 'O'Rings i use a bit more over the 'O'Ring under the clamp, and as said, feel the internal gap between the heads & manifold and smear a smooth layer in the groove, for this you need long fingers on some manifolds and a wrist that can rotate 360 degrees if you know what i mean, although Hylomar sticks like Shit to a Blanket or a Welshman to a Sheep (hahahahaha) the excess can be removed with a bit of elbow grease so it doesn't show much at all,
if I wasn't in total isolation 15 miles from my garage (being at high risk with COPD & only 37% of normal lung function left) I would get photos of exactly what I mean, but you ain't stupid & am sure you get the gist of what I'm saying.
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Old 04-15-2020, 10:05 AM   #187
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Default Re: 41 el

So we're all on the same page and this abortion of a thread can please stop, I just read back in some emails Rhys sent me.

Quote:
SO, I got engine without carb/mani/mag/dizzy.
Great. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. The heads, at minimum, need to be loosened (some loosen the jugs, too) in order to install your manifold.

If you are trying to just bolt in a new manifold and hoping it seals, you are pissing in the wind.

1. Test nipples
2. If nipples hold pressure, reinstall manifold and test manifold and nipple assembly
3. If it still leaks, loosen heads so they may rotate and loosely assembly manifold. Assemble to proper torque specs.
4. Retest
5. If it still leaks, loosen heads and jugs so they may rotate and loosely assembly manifold. Assemble to proper torque specs.
6. Retest

You are almost certainly not going to be able to swap in a different manifold without loosening at least the heads, IMO.
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Old 04-15-2020, 12:02 PM   #188
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Default Re: 41 el

I will add, that I use EP 2 grease on the manifolds with o-rings, and no sealers. This is after checking spigot manifold and adjusting if needed with head and cylinder rotation as needed. Greasing the o-rings spigot and manifold allows the o-rings to easily find equilibrium with each other. Even years later grease remains packed in.
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:31 PM   #189
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Default Re: 41 el

Quote:
Originally Posted by govmule84 View Post
Here. I ran down to the shop and snapped you (and NCMC47) a photo of my nipple test plugs. Knuck on the left, BT flattie on the right.



See how they taper? It purposely allows the nipple to leak if it's going to.

Also, I have no fuckin' clue how you'd be getting that to stay put at 18 pounds. With leak detection fluid all over the rubber plugs I have, I need two hands to keep them sealed. How the hell are you keeping that thing from popping out at that pressure?? (FWIW, I don't test mine quite so high, but even at 10 pounds she'd be poppin' out pretty good.)
Here in England for some reason it is hard to find rubber plugs which is I am guessing why Rhys used cork, about the only rubber ones are for sinks & baths and the available sizes are quite limited, I have also got cork test plugs as he has for that reason....like here with my Stack plug, I looked for weeks for a rubber one before going for the cork one
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Old 04-15-2020, 02:16 PM   #190
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Default Re: 41 el

Thanks Govt. Mule I surmised it could be this. I've used a plug like that in the manifold before. I had to use safety wire to hold it in.

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Old 04-15-2020, 03:09 PM   #191
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Default Re: 41 el

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnum45pete View Post
i spread it on the threads inside & out, enough to fill the threads but not so much that you cannot see them, when screwed in most will push itself out around the joint, i then use my finger to smooth out the excess into a small bead all around the joint so it is not really too visible, it is too thick to be sucked in by the negative pressure inside the manifold when running, & never had it being blown out from internal positive pressure as there shouldn't be any unless the cam timing is way out of sync.
on Ironhead & Shovels with 'O'Rings i use a bit more over the 'O'Ring under the clamp, and as said, feel the internal gap between the heads & manifold and smear a smooth layer in the groove, for this you need long fingers on some manifolds and a wrist that can rotate 360 degrees if you know what i mean, although Hylomar sticks like Shit to a Blanket or a Welshman to a Sheep (hahahahaha) the excess can be removed with a bit of elbow grease so it doesn't show much at all,
if I wasn't in total isolation 15 miles from my garage (being at high risk with COPD & only 37% of normal lung function left) I would get photos of exactly what I mean, but you ain't stupid & am sure you get the gist of what I'm saying.
while we have had good luck with hylomar in the past I dont recommend what we use in the shop now because its 50 US dollars for a tube 1 .75 oz

wurth DOS orange flange sealant - it can with stand vibrations at 17nm before braking free 300 degrees constant - and only dries in the absent of air but it takes 24 hours to set up - nothing works like it but its 50 bucks for a home owner plus shipping
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Old 04-15-2020, 04:31 PM   #192
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Default Re: 41 el

I've got a plumber manifold not O ring. I've never had any kind of issue with the O ring, this one though...
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Old 04-15-2020, 04:40 PM   #193
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Default Re: 41 el

is it different from a flathead head one ?
i had no problem with my ulh but i did use sealant was an exhaust type and had proper spanner
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Old 04-15-2020, 06:17 PM   #194
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is it different from a flathead head one ?
i had no problem with my ulh but i did use sealant was an exhaust type and had proper spanner
Same fittings Rich, but it's a straight manifold. I've got a proper spanner. How much sealant did you use?
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:39 PM   #195
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is it different from a flathead head one ?
I think they're pretty different. Same idea in principle, but there are some key differences for the wrench repairing one of these things.

For starts, on the flattie you're working with the jug, not the head. So you have only the adjustment of the jugs to align the intake; the heads are a non-factor. It also means when you have a leaky intake, a top end is pretty much in the cards unless you want to risk the base gaskets leaking. And the generator is coming off, too. Kind of a pain in the dick.

Secondly, even on a big flattie, the port size is significantly smaller than a Knuck. If brazing/bronzing is a repair method you favor, getting a torch and filler into the Knuck is significantly easier.

The fact the intake is a Y rather than a T also means that manifold length and mounting angle come into play, which is not a factor on the OHV.

Finally, on the flathead, your flange that mates up to the back side of the nipple is sort of broad and flat, whereas on the Knuck it's a much thinner lip. That's a bit of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, the smaller surface area presents less area for leaks. On the other, if there's a chip or imperfection, it's much more difficult to get it to seal.

Just one man's thoughts. To me, the Knuck is slightly easier than the flattie, though obviously making an error peening a nipple rivet in or something is a little more hair-raising just due to the cost. The flattie is (I would imagine) a bit easier than a Pan... I can't imagine having to also toss a weaker metal in the head into the mix.

Also those PEEK seals are, to me, the only way to fly for both Knuck and flathead once you get the nipples sealed up. Fuck the non-annealed repop rings, fuck the huge torque and wrench to tighten them, and fuck the beating they put on the manifold... they literally wear the damn things out with all the heating and cooling cycles scrubbing the shit out of the manifold.
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Old 04-16-2020, 03:46 AM   #196
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Same fittings Rich, but it's a straight manifold. I've got a proper spanner. How much sealant did you use?
Well i found it all pretty straightforward but i was not replacing parts i was using all existing parts just did a valve job as i had my linkert set so lean i melted exhaust valve
i put a big smear of it with my finger all around threads nipped it up jiggled it bit then tightened it (i didn't wind the fuck out of it)
never even did a leak test
mounted a new CV carb and never looked back.
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Old 04-17-2020, 12:43 PM   #197
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Maybe a modified freeze out plug would work. ?
An outside threaded hollow nipple would contract it tight and the internal threaded for a Schader valve.
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Old 04-19-2020, 02:37 AM   #198
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Default Re: 41 el

you still fighting a leak??

I haven't logged in to any forums in weeks, surprised to see this is still going, sorry to hear man.
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Old 04-19-2020, 03:12 AM   #199
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you still fighting a leak??

I haven't logged in to any forums in weeks, surprised to see this is still going, sorry to hear man.
Im Interested to see how your bike is getting along?
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Old 04-19-2020, 09:08 AM   #200
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you still fighting a leak??

I haven't logged in to any forums in weeks, surprised to see this is still going, sorry to hear man.
Thought I'd cured it, no such luck! waiting on a torque adapter to loosen the heads off. The front is 16thou give or take off, when the seal/olive is kissing the one face, can see light through the gap where it's not flush. That will be remedied over the coming week.

Currently wiring her!
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