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Old 10-09-2019, 08:26 PM   #1
MikeJustice55
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Default 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I picked up a 1966 bsa roller with complete engine for $450 at a swap meet about 8 years ago, lost interest and gave it to my dad then decided to build something again so i got it back from him. Heres the plan.... do as much work as possible solo and reuse as many parts as possible to keep this thing CHEAP. I work at a machine shop so i will be making what I can and have good painting skills so we will see how this goes.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:28 PM   #2
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If you are doing a budget engine rebuild what would you consider essential parts to replace? (For example when i rebuild hot rod cars I always replace oil pump, timing chain and clean or replace carb)
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

You work at a machine shop and can paint... I'm strapped in!
I always pull the carb and inspect then clean it good. Anything like a gasket that I disturb also gets inspected and judge its fitness for reuse. Pix will go a long way on this board!
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:33 AM   #4
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Love the Brit bikes! I've rebuilt/ restored dozens of BSA machines. they are my bread and butter! Doing the work yourself is the best way to keep costs down. You might be able to get away with just doing a compression test, priming the oil pump and draining the crankcase (it's probably wet sumped since it's been sitting so long), then cleaning the carb(s) and fitting a new battery. I've seen some people get lucky with these old machines, but the trouble is they don't know what sort of state the engine internals are in and never really build any sort of trust in the machine. Since you don't know what you're starting with, my advice is to do a rebuild of the engine...clean the sludge trap, check the journals to see if you need a regrind. Check out the timing side bushing; if it is worn replace it along with the drive side bearing. Replace the con rod bearing shells...check the bore to see if it is reusable, if it is the old pistons will probably still cut the mustard, if not, then its a rebore with new pistons and rings. Check the ignition system...I prefer the stock Lucas points and coil myself, but make sure the timing advance isn't worn...this should be easy for a fellow machinist to repair if necessary. Check the valve guides for wear and replace them if necessary. You may get away with using the old carbs, but I doubt it will work like it should...replacing them is your best bet. Check your transmission bearings...if they turn smoothly, they are probably good for continued use. BSA made a good, reliable machine, trying to 'improve' on them usually does not have the desired results...avoid "bells and whistles".....Oh yeah, IM IN, so keep us posted please!...and pictures, we need pictures!
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:18 AM   #5
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Alright so i forgot to take pics before disassemble but i have had a bad experience with a "freshen it up and run it job". The sludge trap killed a triumph motor for me so we are going full disassembly to clean the sludge trap first. Using a press to keep some downward pressure on the sludge plug with a punch i ground down to a flat for the plug. Adjustable wrench on the punch with a 24" cheater bar broke it loose with a litte heat. (Not the hardest one ive dealt with but pretty bad)
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:21 AM   #6
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Contents of sludge trap. I knew it would be bad when using air to blow through the oil ports in the crank. I could tell it was clogged fairly badly
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:34 AM   #7
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Heres a pic of my fav build ive done previously. Everything from engine disassembly, assembly, paint, welding and fab was all done by me. This was a 1972 I picked up for $600 as a roller project. Finished up i had a total of $2700 in it. And traded it to a dealership in Fort Lauderdale for a Buell 1125R that was street legal with after market parts and tuning for track days. It scared the shit out of me so i sold it.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:58 AM   #8
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I'm with Goldy.

Engine rebuild is a must or all your efforts may turn out to be in vain.

You can do most of it yourself guided by reference materials online and help in forums such as this.

I'd advise getting a shop/professional to do these parts for you:

- Build your crank assembly. Making sure rod journals are good, bearing fits correct, and rods are in good shape

- Install the crank assembly in cases. Making sure crank end float and timing bushing fit is correct


As for improvements you should consider:

- Cast iron oil pump, or at least a DD (lateA) stamped oil pump.

- Electronic ignition. Points are nothing to be afraid of, but the setup of British points with the various eccentric point cams and somewhat janky points assemblies could lead to a timing problem that could destroy your work

- Oil filter. This is a religious issue that people will fight to the death. If you go with one, use a low-resistance filter with a pass-through valve on the RETURN side of the oil circuit

Have fun.

Jason

p.s. - just re-read the original post and see that you're a machinist. Guess you can set up your own axial play and bearing fits ;-0
'

Last edited by JasonMcElroy; 10-10-2019 at 03:25 PM. Reason: added post-script
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJustice55 View Post
Heres a pic of my fav build ive done previously. Everything from engine disassembly, assembly, paint, welding and fab was all done by me. This was a 1972 I picked up for $600 as a roller project. Finished up i had a total of $2700 in it. And traded it to a dealership in Fort Lauderdale for a Buell 1125R that was street legal with after market parts and tuning for track days. It scared the shit out of me so i sold it. (Thats my wife btw so keep it classy gents)
Sounds like you know what you're doing...should be an interesting thread. Pretty lady by the way, you're a lucky man!
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:04 PM   #10
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Yeah, im pretty confident but havent really messed with bsas. I will have questions when it comes to timing the motor and reinstalling the trans, i did it on my trump but that was 6 or 7 years ago. Just trying to see if theres any unusual hiccups ill run into without being a bsa guy.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I admire your procedure for unplugging the sludge vault. And I don't see many OIF customs I like, and I sure like that one; very tasteful & competent-looking. Purty woman, too. Thanks for showing us pictures. More now please!
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMcElroy View Post
I'm with Goldy.

Engine rebuild is a must or all your efforts may turn out to be in vain.

You can do most of it yourself guided by reference materials online and help in forums such as this.

I'd advise getting a shop/professional to do these parts for you:

- Build your crank assembly. Making sure rod journals are good, bearing fits correct, and rods are in good shape

- Install the crank assembly in cases. Making sure crank end float and timing bushing fit is correct


As for improvements you should consider:

- Cast iron oil pump, or at least a DD (lateA) stamped oil pump.

- Electronic ignition. Points are nothing to be afraid of, but the setup of British points with the various eccentric point cams and somewhat janky points assemblies could lead to a timing problem that could destroy your work

- Oil filter. This is a religious issue that people will fight to the death. If you go with one, use a low-resistance filter with a pass-through valve on the RETURN side of the oil circuit

Have fun.

Jason

p.s. - just re-read the original post and see that you're a machinist. Guess you can set up your own axial play and bearing fits ;-0
'
Thanks Jason I wouldnt say im really a machinist though. I work at a machine shop but mostly do heavy equipment hydraulic repair. I have a few old dudes that do the real machinst work. I make pins and bushings, custom fittings, and do some aluminum and stainless tig welding. As well as painting anything we fabbed up with the worst industrial paint you can imagine. Im more of a house of kolors guy and i get stuck spraying rustoleum rust X most of the time. I have a lot of experience with automotive short block assembly so im familiar with proper torque sequences, plastiguage and using feeler guages to check endplay. I will look into the oil filter you suggest. And check out the oil pump situation.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratso View Post
I admire your procedure for unplugging the sludge vault. And I don't see many OIF customs I like, and I sure like that one; very tasteful & competent-looking. Purty woman, too. Thanks for showing us pictures. More now please!
I just had my dad pick me up another one in Alabama, he brought it home today after work. It looks close to original 1972 so i dont know if i can cut this one up or not. It may just get an engine rebuild and a freshen up. Id feel bad destroying a numbers matching bike.
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Old 10-11-2019, 05:28 AM   #14
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

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Originally Posted by MikeJustice55 View Post
Yeah, im pretty confident but havent really messed with bsas. I will have questions when it comes to timing the motor and reinstalling the trans, i did it on my trump but that was 6 or 7 years ago. Just trying to see if theres any unusual hiccups ill run into without being a bsa guy.
I think you'll find the BSA a better design as far as being oil tight goes...only 4 places to leak on the top end compared 16, or so on other Brit bikes of the period...The crankshaft is a little tricker to set up properly than the Triumph, but the transmission basicaly just 'plugs in' much like the T100 Triumph unit twins. Nice find on the Triumph by the way and I concurr, it's too nice to hack up...when there are so many scrap heaps that need resurection, it makes me sad to see someone cut up a perfectly good machine.
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Old 10-11-2019, 12:06 PM   #15
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Started polishing the crank today, its cleaning up very nicely. I did a few rounds of 800 grit with wd40 to clean the staining off. There doesnt seem to be any pitting so ill hit it again with 1500 then polish with rubbing compound after that and then get the micrometers out and start measuring to make sure it is not out of round and within the correct tolerances before i get some new bearings and plastiguage it. Looks like the motor had water in it at some point to cause rust and staining. Checked out the main bearings and i will have to replace bearing, bushing and race. On a side note all of my coworkers at my shop think i bought a bunch of knock off wrenches that have the sizes labeled wrong. I get a kick out of that.
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Old 10-11-2019, 02:52 PM   #16
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

If you're wanting inspiration, I rebuilt my '66 Lightning (more than once).

Pics and details here: http://jasonmcelroy.com/bsaredo.htm
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Old 10-11-2019, 03:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMcElroy View Post
If you're wanting inspiration, I rebuilt my '66 Lightning (more than once).

Pics and details here: http://jasonmcelroy.com/bsaredo.htm
Was a clogged sludge trap the reason for loss of oil pressure? Thats a very nice bike btw, i wish i had an original tank for mine. It seems to have almost everythine else though. Also i hope i dont run into too many issues with the timing bushings and shimming and installing the crank properly.
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:33 PM   #18
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I made a nice rotating engine stand for the bsa motor today so assembly will be a bit easier. Also now i can hold the motor still and run a chain on the sprocket and clamp it to my table so i can get that nut loose. I think theres a seal behind there?
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Download all the factory service manuals and parts books you can find for reference. They're easy to find and superior to aftermarket tech data. (Check your messages.)
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:57 PM   #20
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

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Was a clogged sludge trap the reason for loss of oil pressure?
I believe it turned out to be a rod bolt failure. I had already done the sludge trap.

Pics of carnage (warning!) here: http://jasonmcelroy.com/bsacooked.htm

This was a tough one to find root cause for me . . . and I'm the type to stress until root cause is found.

My theory is . . .

1. I lapped the rod big ends down a few thousandths and ran a boring head through then to get back to round. Was sure to install and torque rod bolts before boring. Confirmed round with no taper using bore gauge.

2. Installed shell bearings and confirmed fit

3. Installed new rod bolts on final assembly and torqued to spec.

4. I think the nuts were just reaching the end of the threads at torque leaving me with not enough clamping pressure. This could be due to either replacement bolts not having long enough thread section -OR- shortened big end clamp enough (I'm guess less than .010" total after lapping caps and rods) to leave bolt shanks too long. I'm inclined to think the former. Hard to imagine a bolt having a thread section short enough that .010" or even .020" would matter

5. Loose fitting rod bearing allowed lubrication to escape at the area of least resistance, starving the other rod and the timing bush.

Lessons learned:

A. Always check fastener thread lengths. I already do this on head bolts and the like. Guess *everywhere* is the right answer.

B. Don't resize aluminum British rods that have stretched out-of-round

C. Keep original fasteners where possible. If replaced, inspect and test carefully.

D. I might have made another mistake that I'm not aware of

E. Shit happens sometimes regardless of level of effort and care

Have fun with yours!

Jason

Last edited by JasonMcElroy; 10-17-2019 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 10-17-2019, 04:21 PM   #21
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Just for the pleasure of wrassling this thread a little off-topic:

Aren't you supposed to always replace rod bolts? Are they not designed to stretch, first time they're correctly torqued?
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Old 10-19-2019, 08:04 AM   #22
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Yeah every engine ive ever rebuilt, motorcycle, automotive, or marine suggests you replace rod and head bolts for reassembly. (I dont unless im building something radical or ot looks to be damaged) I think the machine work may have been the culprit or the rod bolt was defective. I doubt the rod bolts have significant stretch with the torque they require. I did notice that all of the hardware for this motor seems to be low quality steel and threads damage very easily. I ordered a couple 5/16 26 tpi taps at work so ill be threading some hex shaft and making new nuts for most of my hardware including my rod end nuts. I'll also be making some nuts with that thread in 7/16 hex so that one impossible nut in the center of the motor to split the cases will be easy to deal with next time.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Cool.

I suppose that if that central nut is nearly inaccessible, it's also nearly unphotographable. I don't know BSA twins (or much else, really). If it's no great inconvenience, would you somehow show the soon-to-be-7/16" nut you're talking about?
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:34 PM   #24
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So I have been cleaning, a lot. Got the crank journals polished up and it appears that every oil port is completely clogged (compressed air isnt even getting through the ports) so ill be getting small pipe cleaners to clean those a little better. I measured everything today and i will be using the old cam bushings and timing bushing because they have very little wear and measured within the correct tolerence. The crank and cam are also in good shape after a hand polish.
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:42 PM   #25
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The speedo on this bike said it had 6785 miles on it. You never really know if thats true or not but most of what ive found to be damaged in the engine is due to rust and sitting oil that turned to hard crud. But i did find that one rocker nut was different than oem and eventually found the oem nut jammed between the lifter and cam. This caused the valve to kiss a piston and bend a pushrod and wipe out a cam lobe. Thats why the bike got parked and hasnt been registered since 1977. (The cam im using for the engine now came out of a spare case that came with the bike. It had an extra crank, cam, set of rods and a few little parts left bolted to it)
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Old 10-22-2019, 02:44 PM   #26
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Very good
Nice to diagnose the fault and progress confidently
Nice job
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:23 PM   #27
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Mike and Ratso,

Thanks for tips on re-use of rod bolts. I won't make that mistake again ;-0

Jason
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:42 AM   #28
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Got the crank polished up and installed to check the crank float, it had one .005 thick shim already so it looks like one more .005 shim and i will be right at the acceptable .003 float. I wish i would have ordered a shim pack with the seals that just came yesterday.
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Old 10-28-2019, 12:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Cool.

I suppose that if that central nut is nearly inaccessible, it's also nearly unphotographable. I don't know BSA twins (or much else, really). If it's no great inconvenience, would you somehow show the soon-to-be-7/16" nut you're talking about?
This is the nut im talking about. A 1/4 w socket fits the nut but wont clear the casting of the engine for the socket to fit. So i ended up machining a 13mm socket down to basically paper thin and tapping it on with a hammer to remove the nut. Now I drilled and tapped standard 7/16" hex bar to make a 5/1626 nut that a 7/16" socket will fit easily with no clearance issues
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:34 AM   #30
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Looks like you're doing it right! Nice work.

Are you using the steel cup/washer that guards the shim(s) from rubbing on the case? I think the .005" shim wouldn't last long otherwise. Are these the same pieces you took out when you disassembled?

That nut is a pain. I also skimmed down a socket to get that one off. Also just like you, I've made new nuts with less "meat" in them to use a normal socket in obstructed positions like that one.

Looks like you're having fun.

Looking forward to seeing the end result.

Jason
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Old 10-29-2019, 03:10 PM   #31
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Thanks Jason, yeah it had the cup with a .005 when i disassembled it. Ive gotta order the shim kit from classic British spares friday. The only .010 or .005 material i had at work has already been cut into circular shims but they're too big. I still have to repair the crank sludge trap plug threads and plastiguage the rods to make sure all is well before assembling the lower end for good.

What are you guys using to seal the case halves??

I was thinking gray rtv silicone because i love that stuff and if i have to split the case again later i know they will separate.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Thanks for showing us your intractable nut. Criminally odd engineering there (BSA's, not yours).
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Old 10-29-2019, 07:07 PM   #33
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Yes to RTV
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Old 10-30-2019, 06:42 AM   #34
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

RTV works nicely, but I have taken a liking to Threebond myself.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:07 AM   #35
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Another vote for Threebond or the equivalent (#1104).

Jason
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Old 11-01-2019, 10:58 AM   #36
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Ok ill look into getting some threebond. What kind of rod bearing clearence should i look for with these motors? Should i still follow the .001 per inch journal size so i would be looking for about .0016-.0020? Or does bsa have a different clearance spec. I couldn't find this info in my workshop manual.
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:02 AM   #37
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Are these sheered off bolts in the head that need to be removed or what? I cant tell from my parts book but it doesnt look right to me. I dont have another head to check.
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Old 11-01-2019, 05:00 PM   #38
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

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Ok ill look into getting some threebond. What kind of rod bearing clearence should i look for with these motors? Should i still follow the .001 per inch journal size so i would be looking for about .0016-.0020? Or does bsa have a different clearance spec. I couldn't find this info in my workshop manual.
BSA manual spec for big-end radial clearance is .001" to .0025".

Here's the full shop manual for you to download: BSA Twin Shop Manual

Jason
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Old 11-01-2019, 05:02 PM   #39
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Are these sheered off bolts in the head that need to be removed or what? I cant tell from my parts book but it doesnt look right to me. I dont have another head to check.
Those look like welch plugs to me. Look at the rocker arm feed bore. It's directly in-line with one of the plugs.

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Old 11-02-2019, 01:03 AM   #40
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Ok nothing to worry about there then if the plugs are supposed to be there. Thanks for the info Jason, hopefully my parts will come over the weekend and i can actually start making some forward progress now.
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Old 11-02-2019, 04:15 PM   #41
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I drew some oil passage ways on your pic.

Yellow lines are drilled passages.

You can see the rear feed fitting entering the head and leading to the center boss for the intake rocker arm. That boss is drilled downward into that passage so that oil can reach the rocker arm. The top is then plugged.

The side drilling is to connect the intake rocker arm feed to the exhaust rocker arm feed. It is drilled from the from the front then plugged.

The oil makes it from the center boss to side boss (and up to the front) through the rocker arm (in purple).

Jason


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Old 11-06-2019, 08:08 PM   #42
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Had a productive day at work today. That means it was good for me and bad for my boss. I got the crank float dialed in to about .0024 after 5 shimming attempts. Honed my jug and found a little damage in the lifter valley i need to clean up. Removed all my valves and spun them in the lathe to make sure none were bent. Then lots of cleaning. Ill finish lapping the valves and check rod bearing clearance tomorrow.
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Old 11-07-2019, 05:09 PM   #43
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Plastiguaged out almost right at .002. With the better oil we have these days im confident everything should work just fine on the lower end. A lot of people skip this step but this gives me peace of mind that i didnt remove too much material when polishing the journals. Also bsa rod end nuts are absolute garbage. I will be using different nuts for final torque ill assemble the cases and lower end at home over the weekend. The shop is just too dirty for me to do assembly.Click image for larger version

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Old 11-10-2019, 03:16 PM   #44
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I goofed and dropped my head and broke a fin.
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Old 11-10-2019, 06:21 PM   #45
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Good save!
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Old 11-12-2019, 06:53 AM   #46
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So i got the lower end and cases together now im waiting on gaskets for more assembly. Are the circlips on the lifters just to hold them from falling out when mounting the jug? Out of the 6 lifters i have only 1 had a circlip on it. Are these necessary?
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:54 AM   #47
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

They aren't really necessary...out of the dozens of BSA twins I've worked on, only two still had them. Pack the lifters with grease, or temporarily slip a small O ring over each one and they ought to stay in place when fitting the cylinders.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:24 AM   #48
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They aren't really necessary...out of the dozens of BSA twins I've worked on, only two still had them. Pack the lifters with grease, or temporarily slip a small O ring over each one and they ought to stay in place when fitting the cylinders.
Ah ok. Thats what i was thinking. I was going to push some rubber fuel line over them and pull it off once the jug was mounted. Just wanted to make sure they were not necessary.
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Old 11-15-2019, 06:50 AM   #49
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So the frame had some damage on the back half like it was tweaked a bit, maybe a low speed wreck or something so this make the frame a good option for a custom frame i have been wanting to try. Im going to do a softail design with a monoshock to the backbone of the frame to the rear suspension. Heres a little sketch of the idea. If i doesnt work out ill go rigid hardtail.
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Old 11-15-2019, 01:03 PM   #50
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

The frames on these things are made of some pretty substantial stuff, so it should be able to handle the forces encountered with a monoshock set-up. If you can get your pivot bushing mounts up near the location for the swing arm pivot, it ought to work well (too low and it will play nasty games with your chain tension). You seem to be a pretty clever guy, so now that you've cut the rear end off, I say go for it!
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:34 PM   #51
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Haha thanks Goldy. Im going to give it a shot. I was thinking about trying a spring loaded chain tensioner to absorb any slack so i could make the pivot point a little lower for a cleaner look but we will see how it goes. I ordered a 900lb monoshock for $60 so when that shows up i can start doing some fab work.
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Old 11-16-2019, 10:12 AM   #52
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

A sprung chain tensioner popped into my head too, but it might cause issues when engine braking...Have a little peek at how HD does the soft tail frames..might give you some ideas. Eager to see what you come up with!
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Old 11-16-2019, 06:07 PM   #53
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And i thought i came up with a simple idea and its basically the same as the new harleys softail frames. Now im basically just going to copy that design.
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Old 11-17-2019, 04:51 AM   #54
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Maybe similar to earlier bikes:



Triangulating the swingarm is probably a good idea.
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Old 11-17-2019, 02:47 PM   #55
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Aw, yeah. Build that.
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Old 11-19-2019, 09:02 PM   #56
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Finished up the lower swing arm mounts today. Now i need to mock up the stance to figure out how long and how much of a drop to make the swing arm. And i need my monoshock to be able to half ass assemble this thing. Really hoping i dont have to end up cutting this stuff off later to do a rigid.
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Old 11-20-2019, 12:19 PM   #57
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Looks like real nice work to me. But whatta I know?
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:22 PM   #58
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Quietly following this in a jealous sort of way, looking good. Just going back to your sketch, you wrote ‘brass bushes’. These should be bronze, not brass. I can’t tell from the pics, but to be honest I can’t always tell when I’m holding the material in my hands. Chips come off brass when turned, wigglies come off bronze.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:16 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Quietly following this in a jealous sort of way, looking good. Just going back to your sketch, you wrote ‘brass bushes’. These should be bronze, not brass. I can’t tell from the pics, but to be honest I can’t always tell when I’m holding the material in my hands. Chips come off brass when turned, wigglies come off bronze.
We call them brass bushings at work but they are actually oil lite, oil impregnated bushing material. When you press them in they will actually drip oil out of them. Its also important not to weld the boss with them already installed as well because it will cook the oil out and ruin your welds. (I learned to run the lathe with this material because it cuts smooth and easy at most normal speeds and feed rates)
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Old 11-21-2019, 02:14 AM   #60
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Wow, I just learned something. I’d vaguely heard of this stuff but didn’t know you could get machinable lumps. I knew you’d done it right reading the rest of this, just testing you.
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:10 PM   #61
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Alright, so this is starting to come along, i think i need to get a rear tire to be able to actually figure out where i want to weld my axle plate. Also after mounting the shock i need to try to move it forward at least 1.5 inches to be able to fit a tire without putting a ridiculous stretch on the rear.(so ill be cutting off the work i did today) I dont exactly want it to look like a dragster or a hillclimber with a 4ft swing arm. We gotta keep it looking like a restomod with a little class.
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:21 PM   #62
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

In photo #2, showing your top run of tubes in the foreground: Might you have the (shock, etc.) clearance to make the bend earlier? I mean the bend where the tubes converge on the downtube. The bends in the pic look about like Triumph's factory angles, and those stick out awkwardly when you mount a seat with a skinnier front -- as you might want to do.

I don't know if I'm being even slightly clear. I mean: think about giving your rear top tubes a 30 bend, beginning farther toward the bike's rear, instead of the roughly 45 bend they appear to have now.

Whew.
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Old 11-23-2019, 04:14 AM   #63
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

What about all those fancy mountain bike shocks ?
im pretty sure there shorter than what you have there.
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Old 11-23-2019, 04:43 PM   #64
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In photo #2, showing your top run of tubes in the foreground: Might you have the (shock, etc.) clearance to make the bend earlier? I mean the bend where the tubes converge on the downtube. The bends in the pic look about like Triumph's factory angles, and those stick out awkwardly when you mount a seat with a skinnier front -- as you might want to do.

I don't know if I'm being even slightly clear. I mean: think about giving your rear top tubes a 30 bend, beginning farther toward the bike's rear, instead of the roughly 45 bend they appear to have now.


Whew.
Ah, i see what you mean with that ill have to mock it up to see whats going to happen with the seat issue. I want to mount the back side of the shock before the bend so the bend in the tubes will be more for looks and nice lines. It may be too tight of a bend as youre saying though. I wont know untill i get it set up.
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Old 11-23-2019, 04:44 PM   #65
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What about all those fancy mountain bike shocks ?
im pretty sure there shorter than what you have there.
I used one of those for a seat mount before but i dont think they have the weight capacity for the whole rear suspension with my fat ass on it.
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:08 AM   #66
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

check out AVO , I've used them for Vincent front shock and am pretty sure they make them for the rear too. A 'pedal pusher' shock won't cut it on a m/c IMHO.

There are other shocks used on Vincent's that have good reviews . Armstrong, SPAX.

Is running a pair in tandem a non starter?.

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Old 11-24-2019, 08:08 AM   #67
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check out AVO , I've used them for Vincent front shock and am pretty sure they make them for the rear too. A 'pedal pusher' shock won't cut it on a m/c IMHO.

There are other shocks used on Vincent's that have good reviews . Armstrong, SPAX.

Is running a pair in tandem a non starter?.
Yeah i just need to modify the one i bought. Monshock is cheaper ($45) and looks cool imo. I am keeping close track on the money part of this build and want to keep it under $2k from start to finish. Thats what makes this challenging for me.
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Old 11-25-2019, 05:37 PM   #68
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So i put the jugs on with new piston rings, almost forgot my lifters though. Then inspected the gear selector plate before putting the trans in and it looked almost like new. There was hardly any wear on it at all. Also checked for any chipped teeth or anything else unusual and all looked good. The bearings were also in very good shape so i put some fresh oil all over everything and put it back in. Also managed to take 1 3/8" out of the shock mount on the frame and made the rear shock mount and crossmember for the upper part of the swingarm today. Ill get the swingarm in place for the wheel and take a pic tomorrow if i get a chance.
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:25 PM   #69
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Here is the basic stance. Thats a 5.5 inch stretch from the original swing arm. Ill be working on the front end now to put a rim on the front and set it on the table so i can really get measurements for my axle plate for the rear. Then lots of bracing and measuring to make sure nothing moves when i weld it. It had an older sportster front end on it just finger tight so ill be machining and fabbing spacers to fit the harley front end. (I would prefer bsa front end and wheels but i dont have them and i would like to have disc brakes anyway)

How low is too low? I plan on keeping the center stand and mounts but may modify the stand a bit.
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Old 11-26-2019, 10:26 PM   #70
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I think there's something basic that I don't understand about how your suspension is going to work.
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Old 11-26-2019, 10:36 PM   #71
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

For comparison, here's a Vincent rear end; the seat mount is pretty clearly part of the front frame member. ... So, are the top tubes (with your seat mounted to them) going to move fore and aft as the suspension deals with road irregularities?

Sorry if I'm simply failing to see something obvious.
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Old 11-27-2019, 04:02 AM   #72
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

This shows how Vincent did it in their last year; the seat is on a subframe.

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Old 11-27-2019, 10:51 AM   #73
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My seat will be mounted to the front part of the frame as well. The only thing that will be mounted to the swingarm assembly is my fender and chain guard. Vincent is a very similar set up with dual shocks instead of a mono shock.
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Old 11-27-2019, 12:39 PM   #74
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I am gonna shut up and see what happens next.
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:51 PM   #75
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I am gonna shut up and see what happens next.
Haha i dont mind hearing any ideas at all. This was a new idea for me and there are a lot of things I overlooked right away. At least i know i can always take the shock out, weld some tubing up for a rigid hardtail and it will still be cool. Might throw hours of work out the window but hey, shit like that happens sometimes.
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Old 11-28-2019, 12:57 AM   #76
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Yeah well a guy with your skills, and I guess I can say your vision, it's probably a good corrective to have to throw time and deeds out the window once in a while. Plus, should you decide to go in a different direction, I have no doubt you could make a rear frame like this one from scratch.

Wish it was easier to see what's going on there in frameland.

* Pic is from this site's Board, p. 303. The thread is "Great wrap up ... ," and it's post #1.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:00 AM   #77
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Quote:
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Yeah well a guy with your skills, and I guess I can say your vision, it's probably a good corrective to have to throw time and deeds out the window once in a while. Plus, should you decide to go in a different direction, I have no doubt you could make a rear frame like this one from scratch.

Wish it was easier to see what's going on there in frameland.

* Pic is from this site's Board, p. 303. The thread is "Great wrap up ... ," and it's post #1.
Very cool bsa. Looks fast.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:09 AM   #78
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So i knocked out the old bsa cups and machined in some inserts to run standard 1 inch roller bearing and cups so the harley front end fits. We keep these bearing sets in the tool room for some of the shop equipment so i got them for free along with the steel scraps i used to make the adapters. These are exact measurements i used if anyone wants to put an old sporty front end on a bsa. I made everything .001 press fit. (Tapped in with a hammer nice and tight) now im going to disassemble the front end, put new seals in and shorten the spings up 2 inches and assemble with tires to see if im happy with the ride height.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:11 AM   #79
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Also, the adapter i made for the front end is - 1.125 inches. So that dropped the front 1 1/4 already so im hoping 2 more inches will give it a nice look.
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Old 12-04-2019, 10:45 PM   #80
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

That's a lot of work to get HD bearings on the neck. I have a 68 TR6 and have a sporty front end on it. I machined off the brake and fender tabs and welded a tab on the right leg to fit the Triumph brake drum. Lobrow sells adapters for the neck bearings to install the sporty trees. Is your Beezer different?? Thought they might be the same.
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Old 12-08-2019, 12:31 AM   #81
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That's a lot of work to get HD bearings on the neck. I have a 68 TR6 and have a sporty front end on it. I machined off the brake and fender tabs and welded a tab on the right leg to fit the Triumph brake drum. Lobrow sells adapters for the neck bearings to install the sporty trees. Is your Beezer different?? Thought they might be the same.
I think it is the same and i could have bought a kit but i dont mind making stuff like that on my breaks at work. Plus i wanted to do the spacer to help lower the front a bit more.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:14 AM   #82
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So I took the oil pump apart marked all of the gears cleaned and inspected everything very well and reassembled it. Now if i tighten the 4 bolts on the rear more than finger tight it gets very hard to turn. Now i did clean all mating surfaces and base surface with 1000 grit wet sandpaper with wd 40. I dont think i removed any material but maybe i did and the assembly is too tight now? Any ideas? It was too tight before i started to roll over with my fingers but a straight slot screw driver did it fairly easily.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:31 AM   #83
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Update, if it gets tight, dont try to turn it with a screwdriver. I broke it. Now i have to look when I get home from work and hope i have another oil pump or parts for one.
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Old 12-09-2019, 01:51 PM   #84
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Are you going to use a tachometer on it? If not you don't need both drive tabs to be there and you can still use the same drive gear.
This has happened to me almost every time I have taken apart one of these for cleaning. Sometimes you have to fiddle with the gears to get it to turn smoothly. Other times it may be necessary to lap the face of the gears slightly to get things to loosen up...generally speaking they are a little stiff to turn when they are set up properly anyway.
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Old 12-10-2019, 09:21 AM   #85
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Are you going to use a tachometer on it? If not you don't need both drive tabs to be there and you can still use the same drive gear.
This has happened to me almost every time I have taken apart one of these for cleaning. Sometimes you have to fiddle with the gears to get it to turn smoothly. Other times it may be necessary to lap the face of the gears slightly to get things to loosen up...generally speaking they are a little stiff to turn when they are set up properly anyway.
I dont plan on running any guages on it but i did find another oil pump in my shed. I remember i took one apart before and it had a piece of hardened metal jammed between 2 gears. This is probably the one. I may take the tach drive out of that one and put it on this one. Im going to try to face the gears as well, maybe .0005 will make it spin a little easier. Even with the bolts finger tight spinning it with a screwdriver it pumped very well. I wanted to replace the oring and make sure it all looked good. The oring cracked when i took it out so it definitely needed to be replaced.
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Old 12-10-2019, 06:06 PM   #86
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Hmm. I had posted about oil pumps but can't find it now . . .

If you can, replaced this pump with a later model "D" or "DD" pump (as identified by stamp on body/nose). These are doweled to ensure proper alignment between body and nose which could cause binding of tach shaft or pump gears.

The early ones are a sketchy collection of loose parts that depend entirely on precise assembly and torque down to ensure free operation.

I think the later ones came out in '67 or '68 but am not sure.

There is a later cast iron version but I'm told they are rare as hen's teeth. I've never seen one in real life.

I have no experience with the SRM pump.

Jason

p.s. - if commiseration salves your state of mind, take comfort in knowing that breakage of the tach drive is super common. I'll leave this here to make you feel better ;-0

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Old 12-10-2019, 09:29 PM   #87
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Hmm. I had posted about oil pumps but can't find it now . . .

If you can, replaced this pump with a later model "D" or "DD" pump (as identified by stamp on body/nose). These are doweled to ensure proper alignment between body and nose which could cause binding of tach shaft or pump gears.

The early ones are a sketchy collection of loose parts that depend entirely on precise assembly and torque down to ensure free operation.

I think the later ones came out in '67 or '68 but am not sure.

There is a later cast iron version but I'm told they are rare as hen's teeth. I've never seen one in real life.

I have no experience with the SRM pump.

Jason

p.s. - if commiseration salves your state of mind, take comfort in knowing that breakage of the tach drive is super common. I'll leave this here to make you feel better ;-0

Lol thanks. I took it apart again today and faced the gears with 600grit then 1500 grit wet paper and reassembled and it rolls over nice now. Still a little too tight to do with my fingers but easy with pliers. Not running a tach anyway so its ready to bolt up. I looked to see if i had a later dowel style or a cast iron one but no luck. I have the worst design but it seems to pump really well.
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Old 12-23-2019, 04:57 PM   #88
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Made good progress last week, put new bearings and races in the wheels, new fork tube seals, Shaved the fender mounts off of the legs. Bought some shinko super classic tires and mounted them on the rims after i sandblasted and etching primed them. Now i have it where i want it ill make a jig to mount the rear axle plates where i want them and tack them in place and bring the back half home and tig it up. I dont have correct axles so i need to make some or find some at the local bike scrap yard. Not buying stuff like that new when $5 can get one in good shape.
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Old 12-23-2019, 11:56 PM   #89
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I was wondering about the length, but now that you have the wheels/tires on it looks good. Still wondering about the flex though...going to be interesting.
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Old 12-24-2019, 08:39 AM   #90
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I was wondering about the length, but now that you have the wheels/tires on it looks good. Still wondering about the flex though...going to be interesting.
Yeah. I want to keep the rear open so it looks like a hardtail but im worried about flex too. I am going to put a cross brace in to stiffen it up just in case. Plus the original plan was a 6" stretch but this tire was bigger than i thought so its going to end up being a 7 1/2" stretch.
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Old 12-24-2019, 11:18 AM   #91
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

If it isn't already clear that I think your BSA is going to come out good, and that I admire your eyeball and skills, I do. So this question from the peanut gallery is asked with due respect and no intention to snipe at your decisions.

Does it seem maybe kind of backwards to predicate a big decision (length of rear frame) on the dimensions of a single, consumable, relatively cheap thing like a tire?

I'm asking because to my mind, it's easy to go too long with a hardtail on a British bike or any vertical twin. Too much empty space around it, and the engine (properly, I think, the bike's focal point) begins to look runty and insignificant. I was sweating the 6" extension; 7.5" is making my nose run as well.

Honest, I mean no criticism and obviously my aesthetic opinions are worth every dollar I'm charging you for them. And again, could be I'm missing something major about what you've got planned. As long as you like the result, that's what counts, to the exclusion of every other consideration or opinion.
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Old 12-24-2019, 08:09 PM   #92
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If it isn't already clear that I think your BSA is going to come out good, and that I admire your eyeball and skills, I do. So this question from the peanut gallery is asked with due respect and no intention to snipe at your decisions.

Does it seem maybe kind of backwards to predicate a big decision (length of rear frame) on the dimensions of a single, consumable, relatively cheap thing like a tire?

I'm asking because to my mind, it's easy to go too long with a hardtail on a British bike or any vertical twin. Too much empty space around it, and the engine (properly, I think, the bike's focal point) begins to look runty and insignificant. I was sweating the 6" extension; 7.5" is making my nose run as well.

Honest, I mean no criticism and obviously my aesthetic opinions are worth every dollar I'm charging you for them. And again, could be I'm missing something major about what you've got planned. As long as you like the result, that's what counts, to the exclusion of every other consideration or opinion.
I think itll still look good because the tire takes up the other 2 inches. And no worries about criticism. I am impossible to offend and like to hear other peoples point of view. I do plan on putting a nice battery box, coils, and an custom oil tank behind the motor to fill the gap. It should look good but if I dont like it ill change it.
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Old 12-27-2019, 02:56 PM   #93
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So i finally finished the rear portion of the frame today. It too 2 tries though. First time i welded the axle plates in i didnt do enough tacks and when i did my first stitch it picked up the other side about 1/8" so i had to cut it off and do it again. I got it just about perfect now. So then i welded in the supports to make sure it doesnt flex and it feels very rigid now. I should be able to mount the wheels now and make it a roller to start assembling. I cut a ball bearing to cap the ends of my frame i think it turned out cool.
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Old 01-11-2020, 08:08 AM   #94
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Made an oil tank and tig welded it up this week at work and made some rear axle spacers.
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Old 01-11-2020, 08:58 AM   #95
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Nice looking piece of work!
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Old 01-18-2020, 12:08 AM   #96
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I havent been getting as much done as fast as i would like but im slowly making progress. I made this chain tensioner throughout the week on my breaks. Its a simple design but i havent really seen any like it. It has 2 inches of stroke and cost me $14 in materials. (The brass was something i used as a big punch for putting in bearings and races. Sacrifice worth the reward) the wheel material is teflon left over from an old job we did a while back in the shop.
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Old 01-18-2020, 06:27 AM   #97
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Do rigids need tensioners?
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:44 AM   #98
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Do rigids need tensioners?
No, the suspension doesnt move so its not necessary unless you stretch it. Then you can put one on to help control chain flop. I have had a few hartails with 2"-6" stretch and never needed a tensioner.
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:45 AM   #99
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I believe you would want the tensioner on the low part...
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:25 PM   #100
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I believe you would want the tensioner on the low part...
With the shock mounted topside when it compresses it creates slack on the top of the chain when the subframe pivots. Im hoping this will stop that.
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:30 PM   #101
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Hammered out a seat pan and fabbed up an aluminum chain guard.
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Old 01-22-2020, 07:42 AM   #102
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Keep it up...coming along nicely!
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Old 01-22-2020, 09:05 AM   #103
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Your tensioner isn't going to hold up or work well even for the short time it stays together.
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Old 01-22-2020, 09:05 PM   #104
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Your tensioner isn't going to hold up or work well even for the short time it stays together.
Have you made something like this before and know from experience? Should i have made it out of different materials? Should it be a different design? You might be right but it would be cool if you were a little more specific so i know what to look for here.
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Old 01-23-2020, 04:24 AM   #105
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With the shock mounted topside when it compresses it creates slack on the top of the chain when the subframe pivots. Im hoping this will stop that.
The power of the engine pulls the top run of the chain straight. That's why the tensioners are on the bottom run so they have slack to work with, like here:

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Old 01-23-2020, 07:07 AM   #106
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With the shock mounted topside when it compresses it creates slack on the top of the chain when the subframe pivots. Im hoping this will stop that.
The power of the engine pulls the top run of the chain straight. That's why the tensioners are on the bottom run so they have slack to work with, like here:

But with the suspension the way it is if the engine is not under load and i hit a bump it will slack on the topside. Under load the chain should straighten out and theres enough spring travel to allow that. Maybe i will need a tensioner on the bottom as well. I have seen a few dirt bikes with a tensioner mounted on the top side and bottom side of the chain.
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:12 AM   #107
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Which way do these guys go? Picture 1 or 2?
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:28 AM   #108
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Ok...I was trying to keep my big mouth shut, but now I can't. Mike, your tail section looks great and appears to be built with strength in mind, but had you put the pivot point for the tail directly in line and behind the engine sprocket and as close as possible to that sprocket (like the original swingarm pivot point), you might not need a chain tensioning device at all. Having said that, with the engine straining the top run of the chain, I think putting the device on the bottom run is the only way to go, but it will be compressed when engine braking as well, so you will need a really strong spring. On another note, I think teflon is indeed a great choice for the tensioner wheel material. Please don't take these comments the wrong way, I'm trying to be a "helpful arsehole", so keep up the progress, I'm sure this will turn out to be a unique machine.
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:32 AM   #109
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Which way do these guys go? Picture 1 or 2?
The curved one goes on the primary side to clear the primary case.
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Old 01-23-2020, 09:30 AM   #110
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Start by having a look at this.
https://www.mcmaster.com/chain-tensioners
You should see that the manufacturers do not make pedestals. Also you will not find single pedestals, there is no substantial resistance to bending or tracking, and there is lot of force involved. Do not assume that because you saw one on line like yours that some garage guy made that it's the way to go. If it was the industrial manufacturers would make them that way.
Now lets get into using spring travel, a spring system will bounce. This will in short order break your pedestal tensioner. Elastomers work best as they self dampen.

Now that it's been mentioned your design with the bottom pivot is bad. A look at any Softail is a good example. Again just because some back yard guy did it doesn't make it the way to go.
Altering your design to put the pivot in or near alignment with the sprockets, would rid you of the need for a tensioner.
Tensioners are not usually on the driven section, unless they are solid and don't actively tension.
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Old 01-23-2020, 09:06 PM   #111
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Start by having a look at this.
https://www.mcmaster.com/chain-tensioners
You should see that the manufacturers do not make pedestals. Also you will not find single pedestals, there is no substantial resistance to bending or tracking, and there is lot of force involved. Do not assume that because you saw one on line like yours that some garage guy made that it's the way to go. If it was the industrial manufacturers would make them that way.
Now lets get into using spring travel, a spring system will bounce. This will in short order break your pedestal tensioner. Elastomers work best as they self dampen.

Now that it's been mentioned your design with the bottom pivot is bad. A look at any Softail is a good example. Again just because some back yard guy did it doesn't make it the way to go.
Altering your design to put the pivot in or near alignment with the sprockets, would rid you of the need for a tensioner.
Tensioners are not usually on the driven section, unless they are solid and don't actively tension.
The ones i have seen were not custom made but they were in fact solid mount tensioners. The plus side is i only have $11 and some time in the current tensioner so its not a big deal to change it. You are probably correct that once it undergoes a lot of stress it may end up bent or broken. I might have to scrap this idea. (Sure looks cool tho)
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Old 01-23-2020, 09:14 PM   #112
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Ok...I was trying to keep my big mouth shut, but now I can't. Mike, your tail section looks great and appears to be built with strength in mind, but had you put the pivot point for the tail directly in line and behind the engine sprocket and as close as possible to that sprocket (like the original swingarm pivot point), you might not need a chain tensioning device at all. Having said that, with the engine straining the top run of the chain, I think putting the device on the bottom run is the only way to go, but it will be compressed when engine braking as well, so you will need a really strong spring. On another note, I think teflon is indeed a great choice for the tensioner wheel material. Please don't take these comments the wrong way, I'm trying to be a "helpful arsehole", so keep up the progress, I'm sure this will turn out to be a unique machine.
The pivot point is only about a couple inch or so off from the original swing arm location and with the shock off lifting the rear of the frame it doesnt seem to move the chain much. The tensioner may not be necessary. I might end up with a simple lever style tensioner on the bottom side to just eliminate chain movement. Now the real decision is to try it first or scrap the idea completely. I may drop my motor in and fire it up and rip around a bit before disassembling for paint.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:36 PM   #113
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Always a good idea, except I never get around to the paint.
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Old 01-24-2020, 01:47 AM   #114
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

you made a chain guard so put a teflon or whatever bar/slider in there
and a tensioner on the bottom if you need it
i have a dirt bike chain runs on top of swing arm on a slider near the pivot, theres a roller underneath the pivot and another guide near the hub.
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Old 01-24-2020, 08:32 AM   #115
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Quote:
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you made a chain guard so put a teflon or whatever bar/slider in there
and a tensioner on the bottom if you need it
i have a dirt bike chain runs on top of swing arm on a slider near the pivot, theres a roller underneath the pivot and another guide near the hub.
I could do that, one of my friends has a yamaha dirtbike with spring tensioners on top and bottom.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:43 AM   #116
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

The rollers on dirt bikes are not tensioners, they are solid mount and guides to keep the chain off the frame and a slider wrapped around the front of the swing arm to protect the swing arm from the chain.
They also are so positioned as to keep some slack out of the chain thru it's range of travel. This positioning is some thing you could try with a solid mount guide.
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Old 01-24-2020, 04:30 PM   #117
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Im going too keep moving forward with it and give it a shot and see what happens. Im confident anything that breaks i can fix. If i need to change it i will likely go with solid mount dirtbike stuff. Its definitely an easy fix if i dont like it anyway. But i want to run this thing before tear down for paint anyway. It may end up a rigid by the time this is all done but im learning a lot with this build and most things are one step forward two steps back.
On a side note, i appreciate any opinions or criticism. It is always good to have someone make me think twice about what im doing. Its nice to hear "hell yeah that looks good" but i wont learn anything from that.
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Old 01-24-2020, 04:34 PM   #118
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Headlight mount and ears I fabbed today. Its 304 stainless because someone bought all of our steel. +1 for colorful welds but i would have rather used steel since they will be painted anyway. Except the brass bits. Those will be taped off and cleared.
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Old 01-24-2020, 04:38 PM   #119
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Heres a rough roller so far. I wont be using those bars but most everything else is what ill use. Ended up with a trailer leaf spring to mount the seat and it works very well. Also fabbed the license plate mount today
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Old 01-24-2020, 06:20 PM   #120
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

"Hell yeah that looks good."

I like that the headlight mounts have a profile somewhat similar to the stock BSA ones. Nice detail for the in crowd to admire.
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Old 01-25-2020, 08:17 AM   #121
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Got some good lines there, looks nice! And it even looks like it has some ground clearance. B.Z!
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Old 01-25-2020, 08:59 AM   #122
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Quote:
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"Hell yeah that looks good."

I like that the headlight mounts have a profile somewhat similar to the stock BSA ones. Nice detail for the in crowd to admire.
LoL thanks man. I am liking how its coming out so far. I think the headlight mounts might be the first piece that came out right the first time.
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Old 01-25-2020, 09:01 AM   #123
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Got some good lines there, looks nice! And it even looks like it has some ground clearance. B.Z!
Thank you. The stretch is just a little longer than i planned on -2" would have been perfect in my opinion but im still happy and excited to get th rebuilt motor in.
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Old 01-25-2020, 10:28 AM   #124
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

This photograph, in the background, on the floor: Looks like your shop is under attack by the Worm Creatures of Saturn.
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Old 01-26-2020, 02:27 AM   #125
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🤣 space worms must enjoy the Florida winters i guess.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:31 AM   #126
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Now i know why these cost as much as they do. This set of brass risers took a total of 3.25 hours. The first pic is the raw materials i got for free from a couple of destroyed air cylinders from a local dairy farm. My buddy at work cut them on the water jet on his lunch break then i machined the rest.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:33 AM   #127
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Forgot to take any progress pics for the coil mount but i knocked it out quick on my lunch break
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:39 AM   #128
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+1 for the easiest way to load a motorcycle. Headed home for disassembling and finish welding everything. Drop the rebuilt motor in and start wiring it up.
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:56 PM   #129
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Like the way you are making your own stuff...especially using re-purposed stock. I keep a huge pile of scrap metal under my lathe for this sort of stuff, it's the best kind of recycling!
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:40 PM   #130
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Quote:
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Like the way you are making your own stuff...especially using re-purposed stock. I keep a huge pile of scrap metal under my lathe for this sort of stuff, it's the best kind of recycling!
Haha i know i get so excited when i find a piece of brass that will work for something id like to make. Its like finding gold. The brass plates are actuall scrap brass tubes from the dairy farm that i cut and unroll with a lot of heat and a lot of hammering.
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:06 PM   #131
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Amazing. You wouldn't have more interim pics of the process, would you?

There's a salvage yard in Oakland that used to be a great source of really unusual scrap. Nonferrous metals only, meaning they had, for instance, a 30-foot, multishelf rack stuffed with crushed trombones and saxophones. Lot of brass & bronze takeouts from fine old hotels that had gone bust, et cetera. That was thirty to twenty years ago, now the owners seem to have little patience for customers who don't buy in bulk. Understandable but sad.
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Old 02-05-2020, 05:41 AM   #132
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I'm posting all the pics I take. Im always working solo so not may photo ops when im actually doing something and im usually in a rush to get things done because i make these things on my breaks at work. So i try to get steps done in 15 minute increments
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Old 02-05-2020, 05:45 AM   #133
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Im thinking of making a 2 into 1 intake manifold for the engine. Its a dual carb head and i have a single 932 amal off of a single carb bsa. Could i jet this carb up and put the dual fuel feed fitting on the bottom and make a manifold for single carb? Ive done this with old dirt bikes when i was younger and never had any issues. Id rather have one carb to tune and i dont want to buy another carb.
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Old 02-16-2020, 01:49 AM   #134
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I made my 2 into 1 intake manifold and did some silicon bronze brazing on it to add a better look. I have an amal off a single carb 650 triumph im going to try out and see how it runs. I also machined my foot pegs out of brass and knurled them. Ill hopefully make a set of matching grips the same way. The project has slowed down a bit but i plan on getting back on it soon to get it ready for paint.
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:20 AM   #135
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The manifold is beautiful, great job
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:40 AM   #136
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

That's some very pretty work. The single Amal ought to work perfectly. Jet it for a Thunderbolt and it ought to put you right in the ballpark.
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Old 02-16-2020, 02:38 PM   #137
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Thanks bigguy, and any idea what size that is Goldy? I see lowbrow customs sells different size jets for amals that are good quality replacements but i havent dug in too much to see what size i should be running.
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Old 02-16-2020, 04:49 PM   #138
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

...230 main jet, 106 needle jet and 3 1/2 slide cutaway ought to be a good place to start.

Be careful with the needle and needle jet...they changed them in the late sixties. The earlier ones had no air bleed hole in the jet and used the shorter needle. You can't mix and match, or you go super rich, or super lean. The earlier type also had a removable pilot jet, the later ones have the jet hidden away in the dark recesses of the carburetor drillways across from the air screw. I hope this helps.
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Old 02-20-2020, 08:08 PM   #139
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Thanks Goldy. I am pretty sure my carb is early 70s but ill make sure and start where u suggest instead of shooting in the dark. I am REALLY starting to get excited about this build. I have hit the point where im going over the minor details though which seems to take forever and is boring in general. Most of my projects get sold around this point because people offer me a decent amount and i am already thinking about a new one.
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Old 02-21-2020, 01:29 AM   #140
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

What was your reasoning in running a single carb? Anything beyond "simple to tune"?

Sorry if you've explained this already. I'm too slothful to root around in this thread's early pages right now.

Manifold is a thing of beauty.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:15 AM   #141
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Quote:
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What was your reasoning in running a single carb? Anything beyond "simple to tune"?

Sorry if you've explained this already. I'm too slothful to root around in this thread's early pages right now.

Manifold is a thing of beauty.
I appreciate that, it took me 3 times of cutting it apart and modifying it to make it fit properly. I prefer single carb for many reasons though. Easy to tune, only 1 throttle cable looks clean, i have a brass air cleaner ive wanted to put on a moyorcycle for about 15 years and decided it IS going on this build, and i like the carb not hanging out the sides.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:37 AM   #142
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So im not the best on the mill at work but im learning. Check out this clutch lever assembly I made. Part of it was my first bar riser i cut out but botched my measurements and had to recut them so i figured it would work well here. This is the first part ive made in a while that didnt feel easy for me. So its safe to say im proud of it.
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:51 PM   #143
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

WHOA!

I'm in danger of overcomplimenting your work, which would make you neurotic. "Whoa" was not a compliment, just an outburst.
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Old 02-21-2020, 04:33 PM   #144
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WHOA!

I'm in danger of overcomplimenting your work, which would make you neurotic. "Whoa" was not a compliment, just an outburst.
Hahahaha no, i get it. I am super happy with how this turned out. Its very rewarding to see a tarnished "scrap" piece of brass turn into something so damn pretty. Bad news is... that was the last decent sized peice of 1 1/4" brass i had.
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Old 02-21-2020, 05:34 PM   #145
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DAMN!!!! I may as well use stone tools. You can be proud of that.
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Old 02-27-2020, 05:22 PM   #146
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So, making a throttle assembly was harder than expected and i came very close to ordering one. But since i finished it, im glad i made it. It works very smoothly. The part that the throttle cable slides into was made out of a second peice of scrap cut with a band saw drilled and bolted to the unit i made with a small groove to hold it in line. The bolt head acts as a stop and a second bolt was put in as the other throttle stop. This was the first time i have ever cut a groove inside a part with the lathe and im actually surprised I finished it within .005 of my drawing. I used a plastic throttle unit and cable that i got at a swap meet a while back for $4.00. Got the bars off Amazon for $18.99. $1.75 for hardware and brass was all freebies from leftovers from jobs. So this whole set up costs me less than $26.00. The brass got a rattle can coat of urethane clearcoat to stop oxidation and corrosion.
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Old 02-28-2020, 05:53 AM   #147
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Some fine looking work there! Like I always say, you can buy lot'sa stuff, but you can't buy bragging rights!
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:18 PM   #148
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This is the first time ive ever made custom pipes. I will be tigging them up. Smoothing out the welds a bit, then a coat of high temp black folled by exhaust wrap. I need to make a mounting bracket off of the frame as well where the pipes come together. Theae should look cool when theyre done tho.
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Old 03-09-2020, 06:06 AM   #149
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Wow, that's a whole lot of fiddly-diddly work, but I'm sure the results will be awesome!
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Old 03-09-2020, 08:35 PM   #150
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Tigged the pipes up. Spent about 3 hours smoothing them out, and pressure testing them for leaky welds. They are now air tight and ready for paint then exhaust wrap. Im going to put some baffles in as well because i dont like super loud.
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Old 03-15-2020, 07:26 PM   #151
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Gave the pipes a high heat black paint job and wrapped with white exhaust wrap. Just need to make a mounting bracket and a couple heat shields and they will be all done.
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Old 03-15-2020, 10:40 PM   #152
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

these skills are kinda making mine feel distinctly
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&ur...AAAAAdAAAAABAI
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Old 03-17-2020, 02:07 PM   #153
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these skills are kinda making mine feel distinctly
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&ur...AAAAAdAAAAABAI
Hahaha im sure theyre not that bad. That made me Lol for real tho. 😂 just take you're time, anything can be done if you refuse to give up. Some things will take me multiple attempts and restarts. I am very greatful to have the tools i do have at my disposal but i have made things with just a torch and a grinder that would surprise people. Heres the exhaust heat shields i made out of an old Corvette sidepipe muffler i got for free a while ago.
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Old 03-17-2020, 05:24 PM   #154
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Those are supercool. But don't they need about 150,000 speed holes to look finished?

Kidding. Speed holes would dink up their, uh, muted refinement and look cheap.
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Old 03-17-2020, 06:16 PM   #155
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Haha i need speed holes in my frame and gas tank too
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Old 04-07-2020, 06:54 PM   #156
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Made a master cylinder bracket and linkage to mount up for my harley disc brake rear. I ground down my old brake pedal surface and used tig braze silicon bronze over the surface about 3/16" thick and waffled it like the original but when i paint everything black the brass should pop. (Brake pedal was worn almost flat anyway) Also made an exhaust bracket to mount the pipes to the frame by cutting out a simple bracket and drilled and tapped for a 3/8 stud. Ill tig it solid when i tear down for finish welding and paint.
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:10 PM   #157
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I fabbed up a cool kicker pedal. It was harder than i thought it would be because i cant paint it to hide any imperfections. Also my old machinist friend at work showed me how to do a cool pattern on the lathe with a knurler to create a spiral instead of the normal cross hatching. Theres a lot of machine work into this with a delrin insert that was a press fit inside the stainless housing to keep it from rattling. And a machined oring groove to make it so it spins when necessary but wont flip or flop around while riding. It looks simple but it is NOT!.
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Old 04-07-2020, 10:24 PM   #158
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

It all looks slick as hell. That is a cool pattern you made with the knurler. Real tidy.

The four ears projecting radially from the end of the oil tank: what's their purpose going to be?
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Old 04-08-2020, 05:49 AM   #159
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I really enjoy watching this workmanship. B.Z!
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Old 04-08-2020, 07:34 AM   #160
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It all looks slick as hell. That is a cool pattern you made with the knurler. Real tidy.

The four ears projecting radially from the end of the oil tank: what's their purpose going to be?
I unrolled and hammered out some brass material and gave it a brushed finish to do kind of a false brass cap on the sides of the tank. I will also put a sight guage on the same side as the fuel sight guage. Thats what the two plugged holes are for.
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Old 04-08-2020, 09:16 AM   #161
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

That kickstarter pedal looks like something you would see in the movie Fargo, a part on a wood-chipper, dispensing red chunks onto a field of fresh snow.

Looks like you had a good amount of time to ponder the build, to have it be aesthetically-appealing while functioning-well, and not being annoying (rattling, rotating from vibration).
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Old 04-08-2020, 09:55 AM   #162
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That kickstarter pedal looks like something you would see in the movie Fargo, a part on a wood-chipper, dispensing red chunks onto a field of fresh snow.

Looks like you had a good amount of time to ponder the build, to have it be aesthetically-appealing while functioning-well, and not being annoying (rattling, rotating from vibration).
Haha the mini chipper dont kick it barefoot. squeaks and rattles drive me insane. Part of the reason ill never do a springer again. 2 in a row had a squeak i couldnt get rid of. I see you're from miami, I live in fort pierce so u might see it in person sooner or later at shows. Ive never put any of my bikes in shows but ill make sure this one makes it to some of them in the maimi or ft Lauderdale area. And ofc daytona next year.
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Old 04-17-2020, 06:31 PM   #163
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So I had a little down time at work so i revamped our powdercoat booth into a paint booth. I also do powdercoat and industrial painting for the shop but the powder oven is currently broken with no eta on getting fixed so ive just been painting when needed. The boss had no problems with putting up some new lights and white epoxy to brighten things up. I framed in a 12'8' area with 2x6 so i can staple plastic to make it a clean environment and the room already has filters and exhaust for shooting powder. Hopefully i can get my frame in there next weekend.
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:03 PM   #164
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Black frame? Or you going to do something flamboyant and wacky?
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Old 04-17-2020, 09:10 PM   #165
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Black frame? Or you going to do something flamboyant and wacky?
Black frame for sure. Ill get fancy with it by doing gloss. I hate bright flashy frames about as much as i hate chrome. Maybe why i never fit in with the harley guys.
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Old 04-18-2020, 02:55 PM   #166
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Nice little booth...that'll get the job done. Wouldn't mind see the powder coating process, might try that on my frame.
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Old 04-18-2020, 05:05 PM   #167
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I'd *really* like to see it done with your broken powdercoating rig.
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:48 PM   #168
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Our small oven still works so i can powder smaller parts (24x24x40). To be honest I have access to a great powdercoating system and an oven that can do most motorcycle parts but i prefer paint. Its not quite as durable but its easier to work with and has better results. Powder can be very tricky to get to lay flat, have super high gloss, its hard to do finer details and the prep on this old aluminum is terrible with offgassing and fish eyeing. The only thing i would have liked to powder was the frame and it wont fit.
Maybe ill do a couple smaller parts with powder to show the process and do a comparison of high gloss black powder vs gloss black base clear.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:22 PM   #169
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Fabbed up a stainless steel battery box yesterday. Mounted my ignition switch and podtronic to it so most of my wiring will be out of the way. Drilled and tapped the box so the studs sit flush so i could make the box as small as possible. Mounted it on some 1/8" neoprene and wrapped the lower half of the battery with neoprene as well to eliminate vibration.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:36 PM   #170
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I love a nicely fabricated box, perhaps because making such things is about as high as my skill set has ever taken me. That's a particularly good one.

I'm suspecting that it sits on the bottom rails. behind the transmission ... ?
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:36 PM   #171
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Took the bike off the stand today because FAB WORK IS DONE!!!! Here is a few shots before i disassemble and start painting. My paint came yesterday, i got organic green kandy basecoat from house of colors, bone white, and a gallon of clear. I still had almost a quart of black and some 2k dtm primer so i think i have everything i need. (I know i need to adjust the rear fender and bend my pegs a bit to make them straight. It will be done before paint) I also planned on running the bike before paint but i would have to put the actual engine in and wire the whole thing and then disassemble it. I feel like it would be better to just paint it and assemble for real and work out the hiccups later and try to be more confident in my work.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:43 PM   #172
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I love a nicely fabricated box, perhaps because making such things is about as high as my skill set has ever taken me. That's a particularly good one.

I'm suspecting that it sits on the bottom rails. behind the transmission ... ?
Yup. Thats the spot! This only took me about an hour because my buddy at work cut the top and flanges it bolts to with the water jet so no drilling or grinding needed there. I just bolted them together and set the box on it and welded it. Ez perfect fit. I am very very lucky to have access to the tools i have. I would have at least triple the fab time if i didnt work at this shop. Plus the lazer and waterjet have tons of good stainless and aluminum drops that i can grab for free.
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Old 04-21-2020, 06:10 PM   #173
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Haw! That's a great-looking bike, man. It's unique without being a dick about it. It's RAKISH. It's INSOUCIANT. It is FUCK YOU, JUNIOR, but in a nice way.
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Old 04-21-2020, 06:27 PM   #174
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Are the fittings on the tank side for a visible gas gauge?
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Old 04-21-2020, 06:34 PM   #175
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Haw! That's a great-looking bike, man. It's unique without being a dick about it. It's RAKISH. It's INSOUCIANT. It is FUCK YOU, JUNIOR, but in a nice way.
Hahaha. I like you Ratso. Im picking up what you're putting down here. Thanks.
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Old 04-21-2020, 06:34 PM   #176
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Are the fittings on the tank side for a visible gas gauge?
Yes, there will be one on the oil tank as well.
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:18 AM   #177
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Beautiful. You've got quite an eye. Love the chainguard shape, tank, all of it.
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Old 04-23-2020, 07:00 AM   #178
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Beautiful. You've got quite an eye. Love the chainguard shape, tank, all of it.
Thanks. Its turning out better than i expected
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Old 04-23-2020, 07:58 AM   #179
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Yea looks good
how is the rear suspension it works ok?
i presume you sat on it and bounced up and down?
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Old 04-23-2020, 09:44 PM   #180
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Quote:
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Thanks. Its turning out better than i expected

What did you expect, you have some awesome skills! Would like to see the rear suspension in action before paint...just in case.
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Old 04-24-2020, 10:29 PM   #181
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Yea looks good
how is the rear suspension it works ok?
i presume you sat on it and bounced up and down?
It is very stiff. When i pull it apart for paint im going to adjust the shock to its least stiff setting and ride it. As it is now with me on it trying to collapse the shock i can hardly get it to move. I weigh 220lbs. I hope with it adjusted it will move a little easier but at this point it is hard but has some movement making it like a hardtail with a little give. Now the leafspring seat mount is awesome. It may be the reason i dont see much movement in the shock because when i try to collapse the shock i end up flexing my seat spring. Also my engine is the mock up engine which is an empty case so it will be substantially heavier when i actually assemble it. At this point im at the "fuck it im going to ride it and see what happens" stage. Ill make it shiny, wire it and fire it up. If i dont like what i have or any ideas didnt work then on to fixing it or build my triumph and come back to it
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Old 05-01-2020, 12:52 PM   #182
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Default 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

So I went against my best judgement and bought rattle can hok kandy basecoat because i thought, hey its house of kolors it was still like $40 so for the name and the price it should work good. IT DID NOT! I got inconsistent fan and spatter from hell. I decided that maybe more coats would level the color out and it might look good when it has some more paint on it. Once again I was wrong. Now i have to let it dry just to sand it off. $40 well spent. If you were thinking about trying this stuff just dont.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:33 PM   #183
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So im making slow progress now but still getting things done. I had some issues with weather here in florida, trying to paint with 90+ degree temps and 90% humidity is tough. I have a couple small runs in the clear that i need to buff out but the frame is basically done. Im waiting on activator to get delivered for my primer so i can paint the wheels to get this thing rolling before i drop the motor in.
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Old 06-01-2020, 07:25 PM   #184
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I got the fender cleared and i like these colors together but im debating whether i should throw a black pinstripe between the colors or not. The tank got solvent pop in the clear so back to the booth with that tomorrow after wet sanding. Also check out the triple tree nuts i machined for these english coins to fit in epoxied them in and cleared over them. They should look nice on the front end.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:24 PM   #185
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Nice paint, real nice. Goofy nuts.

Back in your post #183, first photo: What are the weighty objects beneath the bench your frame is sitting on? Are they forms for something?
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:33 PM   #186
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I'd be inclined to use a lighter contrasting color pinstripe as an accent not a separation line. Just my opinion
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:32 AM   #187
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Nice paint, real nice. Goofy nuts.

Back in your post #183, first photo: What are the weighty objects beneath the bench your frame is sitting on? Are they forms for something?
That is a hydraulic nut buster and those are sockets. I repair hydraulic cylinders for cranes occasionally. I will mount the rod in that machine and use hydraulic pressure to break the nut loose or tighten it back up to spec. Some hydraulic cylinder nuts are 4-6" and require 6,000-12,000 ft/lbs of torque to be "tight". I actually broke a crossthreaded 80mm solid chrome shaft with it before, it twisted it and it sheered in half. The thing is insanely powerful.
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:29 AM   #188
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I like the colour combo...it reminds me a bit of my old BSA H57.
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Old 06-04-2020, 08:31 PM   #189
MikeJustice55
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Went in early to work to spray some clear on my gas tank, oil tank and headlight bezel. Oh and the chain guard but then on the third coat i dropped my chain guard on the ground and ruined it. So ill have to strip it down and restart. I came home from work and put my forks on with the gaiters and headlight ears. A couple bsa decals on the forks should help hide the fact it was a shitty old sportster front end to start off with. I was also surprised how great kustom shop fine line tape worked. It pulled super clean lines, better than any other fineline tape i have ever used.
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:41 PM   #190
Ratso
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Real pretty. The stacked-musket decals do help diminish those Sportster slider tumors.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:14 PM   #191
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

BZ! Looks great!
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Old 06-06-2020, 07:53 AM   #192
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratso View Post
Real pretty. The stacked-musket decals do help diminish those Sportster slider tumors.
One hundred years-ago, BSA was the world's largest manufacturer of motorcycles (1920's).

Any particular reason you didn't machine-off the boxes for the rectangular reflectors? If you mentioned it, I missed it.
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Old 06-08-2020, 09:20 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elektron View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratso View Post
Real pretty. The stacked-musket decals do help diminish those Sportster slider tumors.
One hundred years-ago, BSA was the world's largest manufacturer of motorcycles (1920's).

Any particular reason you didn't machine-off the boxes for the rectangular reflectors? If you mentioned it, I missed it.
I was planning to put union jack decals there and thought it would look nice instead of putting a rectangle decal on a round surface but ended up doing the bsa rifle decals instead. I still like the way it turned out. I would have turned them off if i went with a polished look but here in florida aluminum oxidizes very quickly with the salt in the air and high humidity so ive decided to paint everything for less maintenance.
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Old 06-17-2020, 12:12 AM   #194
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Default Re: 1966 Bsa 650 on a budget

I hope this isn't such an off-the-wall non sequitur as to irritate anybody. It just seemed so odd I couldn't let it pass. Will gladly take this post down if it gets on Mike's nerves or anyone else's.

The image strikes me as a direct relative of one of those conversations that begins:"Hey man! You got strange suspension on the backa your bike; I got strange suspension on the backa *my* bike! Let's get a beer!"

And after looking at the pic for a while, I'm left with this big question:

Having ventured so far into Uniqueland with the back end, what in hell did the builder do for a front end? A springer in the back is a hard act to follow; or in this case, to precede.
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Old 06-17-2020, 09:14 AM   #195