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Old 03-31-2018, 05:03 PM   #1
curtisvitoria
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Default Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Hey guys,

I just recently fired my 50 pan after sitting all winter, normally it takes a bit to get going. This spring it fired after about 10 kicks, normally smokes a bit until it gets warm. this year the rear cylinder was blowing blue, then went clear as I gave it throttle. I let it get nice and warm, and it's still blowing blue. I changed the plug, the one that was in it didn't looks overly oily. Fired up again and still blue. When I put it way, it ran perfect. Ideas? Thanks!!! Pic for attention.

I should mention the pistons, rings, and cylinders only have 3500 miles on them.

Maybe the guides?
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Old 03-31-2018, 06:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Let it cool down and fired it up again, I would say the smoke is cut in half. Still smoking out of the rear though, will update.
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Old 03-31-2018, 06:22 PM   #3
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Have you taken it out for a spin yet? Was it sumped? How is it running tune wise?
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Old 03-31-2018, 06:38 PM   #4
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

I haven't ridden it yet, waiting on a clutch cable, runs strong outside of the smoke. I've started it and let get hot 3x now, let cool and start again. It seems to be getting less each time.

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Old 03-31-2018, 06:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Did you put in one piece oil rings when you rebuilt it?

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Old 03-31-2018, 07:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

I know what I want to ask, but the beer is keeping my mind from translating to my fingers and keys....

The gist is washed cylinder, but the rear is usually hotter so...? Not riding it and allowing it to get some load so the rings can reseat might be the issue or I'm talking out my ass and missing it. The less each time you fire it backs it up though. Except running it and getting it hot from a ride and it still smokes, would indicate another issue with the thin oils and assumed good cylinder seal. Might mean a guide seal or guide issue...It's fresh though right? Could mean both still. I say ride it before messing with it. Leave it be. Sitting for a spell can cause stuff that is normal for the bike. Each has their quirks.
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Old 03-31-2018, 08:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Guides usually give the up throttle a little smoke. But, just a shot. Rings, are the opposite. They don't smoke so much under a load, but maybe some. The rings usually smoke when you get to a even speed. And this can also be altered, by a oily cylinder after sitting for long periods, as the heads usually hold some oil, and if it sits long, this can allow the oil to drip into the intake or exhaust. When you fire it up, it can, and usually will, smoke less and less, as it runs. Some take a while, to burn the residue out. Plus, if a valve is open on the dripping guide(almost always the exhaust, because they are the low spot and where all the oil goes to drain back to the crankcase), it can get to the piston, and weep past the ring gaps. When that happens, it will again, take a little time to burn it off.

Recommend a compression test, and even applying air pressure to the accused bad cylinder. Or a leak down test. If you have a rig. If you use just pressure, you will be able to "hear" the leaking in the carb if it is a intake leak, the exhaust pipe if it is a exhaust leak, or the crank vent. A little is acceptable. A louder hiss is a indication that there is a bad valve, guide, or rings, or a combination of the three. Not to mention, a bad head gasket where the oil drains drain the head oil. So a air pressure test, can also weep at the head gasket, and I use soapy water and look for bubbles. Even if you have great compression, the head gasket can leak. On the internal oilers, it can be worse, and even back up air into the oil tank. You will see foamy looking oil.

Yeah, I am longwinded, but I try to be precise, and mention all I can think of. Don't let it intimidate you. If it runs and does not smoke bad, you are not going to hurt anything, except your HD wallet(Hundred Dollar)adding oil. But remember, it pays you back when you go for a ride. Not to mention the meal of bugs you get, for free. Not to mention the cool tshirts you get from the oil splatter. tshirt(DOT)com

And don't let Jaws fool you into thinking that he is drunk. He is just drunk. But even in that state, he still has his heart in the right place. And he has forgot more than many on here have ever learned. In other words, Jaws is the man. (take that, and put it in your pipe and smoke it, buddy) DR Cave(man)
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

LOL. No I'm not anyone special. I just love to keep these old pieces of shit running. Because they sound better than hondas or suzukies. Think about it. Choppy idle and raspy throaty pipes vs. fart can smoothe bumble bee honda exhaust notes.


If you have access to a leakdown tester...life would be tits and if you tested your intake with a the proper tool and some windex, I would blow my wad....I know. Sad. I get it. a grown ass man with hairy bawls, blowing his load over a properly tested combustion engine...I need help.
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAWS View Post
LOL. No I'm not anyone special. I just love to keep these old pieces of shit running. Because they sound better than hondas or suzukies. Think about it. Choppy idle and raspy throaty pipes vs. fart can smoothe bumble bee honda exhaust notes.


If you have access to a leakdown tester...life would be tits and if you tested your intake with a the proper tool and some windex, I would blow my wad....I know. Sad. I get it. a grown ass man with hairy bawls, blowing his load over a properly tested combustion engine...I need help.
And you make that last statement, like you are in a boat, all by yourself. Look behind you, and you will see a boat full of hairy bawls, blowing his load over a properly tested combustion engine. We all need help.
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:51 PM   #10
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

LOL...


Point is, we all want to see these machines rolling under their own power. Smoke or not. The sound they make is better than any music known to man.......
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Old 04-01-2018, 02:07 AM   #11
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

It's getting better the more I run it, Im thinking the heat cycles are helping, maybe a bit of summing going on. who knows.
It's running strong either way so well see what happens.

Thanks for all the posts guys!!!!
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Retorque as you cycle.
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Torque the head bolts when it gets cold?
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:10 AM   #14
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

When cooled after first heat cycle re-torque. You only need to re-torque one time.
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:49 AM   #15
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Joe, you dont recheck them? Are thry still good after the first heat cycle retorque? I always check them maybe too often...is that possible? Havr you found issues from multiple retorque? Pulled thread worry or some other damage?
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:49 AM   #16
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Jaws to answer your question. My thoughts are. The first heat cycle the head gasket compresses from the expansion of the engine head and cylinder and when every thing cools the torque is lower and is needing the re-torque. But after that the gasket is already at compressed thickness. Barring bad over heating which will compress the head gaskets more, which I will then re-torque again, to prevent a fail as in blown gasket, Other wise only one re-torque. To add some manufacturers say no re-torque, I still re-torque one time as I had failures and re-do's on some of the engines that I used the not necessary to re-torque gaskets. Using factory Shovel gray gaskets I also had fails on a second start up when not re-torqued. Which I tried because were I worked as a engine builder at Mack Trucks, was allowing 1000 miles then a re-torque and valve adjust on a fresh engine. That made me think, maybe I could get away with it also, nope, tried that twice before I learned. I will mention to also re-torque cylinder base nuts, they brought me grief once also.
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Yes base nuts. I am just paranoid I guess. I like to check all of them and the mount bolts when I go ride. I don't want to damage anything.... I wasn't always that way. I have had stuff vibrate apart.

I was just curious what you did.
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Last edited by JAWS; 04-06-2018 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Jaws your not alone. I've heard some of the European cars called out 2 re-torques.
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Old 04-06-2018, 04:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

Call me crazy, like most do. But, on a fresh rebuild, I torque once, then go back and retorque a second time, and if they take more, I even do it a third time. I never check a second time, that they don't show a need for a topping off. Then after the first heat cycle, I retorque again. After total break in, and I say that is good by 500 miles, I have customers bring it back, for a oil change, a oil analysis and a retorque. I have never had one go bad since I started that application. before, I only had a few, but to me, one is to many.

Like I say, call me crazy. It don't bother me, after this long.

It is cheaper than redoing one. Plus, my reputation is worth more than the money I make. But then, I do it not to make a living. I do it because I truly love to do it. Profit is a secondary thing, although nice for the wallet. But emptying my wallet sucks, when anything comes back, and my rep hurt.

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51 FLH short term project
60 Doc Dytch XLCH Drag only
61 XLCH parts bike
65 XLCH parts bike
66 FLH
68 XLCH parts bike
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69 XLH daily rider
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72 XLH
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73 FLH chopper(Shirley the Shovelhead) Daily rider
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: Panhead Blue smoke (rear cylinder)

I think I lean towards your methodology there Dr. Cave.

I am curious though when another I regard as a good wrench says a different notion. Joe builds motors for a living, so I am more than intrigued.

I probably always will yield to the more torques or triple checking thing, but I also like to know the actual "as designed" specs. I mean, them engineers are a damn sight smarter than me.
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