'86 Evo top end rebuild - The Jockey Journal Board

Go Back   The Jockey Journal Board > General Discussion > The Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-15-2012, 10:12 PM   #1
ChuckB
Senior Member
 
ChuckB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 122
Default '86 Evo top end rebuild

I have had this bike for 12 years.. I rebuilt the top end with a new rebore about 30K miles ago. It had stock pistons.. I never noticed, but there were no washers, the thick $15 ones (HD p/n 16482-85) under all the head bolts... I put it together without them.. The exposed head bolts on the left side were recessed.. I never paid it no mind.. I am rebuilding it again due to a worn crankpin and rear base gasket leak and after looking in the HD parts catalog I saw that they show the washers being necessary.. I looked at other evo's and saw that the head bolts on the left side were flush, not recessed.. they had the washers.. I had the engine all togeather, but took the top end off again, got the washers.. when I go to assemble it and drop the bolts on without turning them, I see there is about 1/4" of tightening room between the bottom edge of the bellshaped head bolt and the contact washer .. is this normal?? Any input would be apperciated.. I am trying to get this bike done and have been working hard on it for the last few months.. Thanks.

Last edited by ChuckB; 02-15-2012 at 11:41 PM.
ChuckB is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-16-2012, 08:13 AM   #2
twowheeledhell
Senior Member
 
twowheeledhell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Genoa City, Wisconsin
Posts: 220
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

As well as you explained it-a picture would help, maybe a few. We'll definitely try to help!
__________________
Here for the same reason as you-but not the same as some others.....

Justen @ Nipple Twisters Wheelcraft
Genoa City, WI
twowheeledhell@yahoo.com
twowheeledhell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 09:12 AM   #3
Dragstews
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Also Lost in the Sixties
Posts: 7,717
Send a message via Yahoo to Dragstews
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Photos would really be good to see ....

From what you said...Sounds like there is not much thread contact with using the washers...

If my thoughts are right about how long the threads are....I'm thinking about an inch and a 1/4 on the stud...

Harley did the first few years of the EVO studs a little diff. then the later head-bolts and studs....Seems to me there was also something up with the head bolt holes being deeper in the heads for using those 1/4 fat washers...
Not sure about this without having them in front of me to see..???
Dragstews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 10:03 AM   #4
DarkGoat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 443
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Harley changed the length of the stud and the head bolt. They did this due to a change in the head casting. Recessed bolts are ok as long as there is sufficient thread engagement. You should check your studs to see if they are the old (pre 93-94) ones and if they are loose. The old studs have a rolled thread end that screws into the case (bad) and a small flange just below the head bolt end threads. These old studs often come loose and oil will wick up the threads to cause base gasket leaks, particularly on the rear cylinder, rear stud on the primary side. Flywheel action is constantly spraying oil directly on this stud hole. New studs look similar but no rolled threads (good) and the flange goes down to the case and acts as a stop to tighten the stud and seal the hole. The new studs come with a "lock patch" sort of built in factory lock tite. If you upgrade to the new studs, you will need to verify that your head bolts are sufficient length. They are probably rusty anyway so get the new zinc plated polished ones. As far as the studs are concerned I am leaving off a lot of the saga of different studs and bolts because it doesn't matter I guess, the latest stud and bolt combo is the best. My memory is crappy but I think with your heads(86)and the new studs and bolts you will need the thick washers. The shockingly expensive washers.
DarkGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 05:06 PM   #5
Dragstews
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Also Lost in the Sixties
Posts: 7,717
Send a message via Yahoo to Dragstews
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild



The head on the right is a non-breather (Early) head...



There is three kinds of bolts that Harley used on the Big Twin Evo...

The first was for the 83-E85 year models (HD#16480-83)
The second run was L85-91...................... (#16480-85A)
Next was for 92 and up................................(#16480-92)
The studs for the 85 and back are diff. from what the Mo-Co used on the 86 and up...

If you have a mismatch of these years....Sure could cause problems, I would think..??
==================================================

Chuck.....Go down to the Five & Dime store and buy some film for that dog-gone Brownie..!!!
Let's see what your dealing with...

Last edited by Dragstews; 02-16-2012 at 06:42 PM.
Dragstews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 10:30 PM   #6
ChuckB
Senior Member
 
ChuckB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 122
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Thanks everyone for the input! I knew yall wouldn't let me down

pictures, pictures.. now why didn't I think of that??


This pictures shows the amount of stud sticking with the cylinder sitting on the base gasket.. about 3/16" and about 3 1/2 threads:



Here is one of the inner headbolts sitting on top of the stud untightened..head gasket and base gasket installed.. about a 3/16" gap. Contact with the washer is made after 3 1/2 turns:


Same as above for the outer headbolt:



inner headbolt after contact is made:



Here is what the outter headbolt looked like before without the washer:



The inner headbolt doesn't have a deep recess like the outer one:



I am using new aftermarket (Colony) studs adjusted to a height of 5.75" as per my manual. :



3 1/2 threads don't seem right, but I may be worring over nothing.. of course as I tighten the bolts down I will get a couple more turns as the gaskets compress..

Does this seems right?? Thanks again.
ChuckB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 10:51 PM   #7
ChuckB
Senior Member
 
ChuckB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 122
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

[QUOTE=Dragstews;802491 The head on the right is a non-breather (Early) head...There is three kinds of bolts that Harley used on the Big Twin Evo...
The first was for the 83-E85 year models (HD#16480-83)
The second run was L85-91...................... (#)
Next was for 92 and up................................(#16480-92)
The studs for the 85 and back are diff. from what the Mo-Co used on the 86 and up...If you have a mismatch of these years....Sure could cause problems, I would think..??
==================================================
Chuck.....Go down to the Five & Dime store and buy some film for that dog-gone Brownie..!!!
Let's see what your dealing with...[/QUOTE]




Don't have the Brownie no more, but I do have my old Polaroid Swinger

Found 4 of these in a box of parts.. Here is what that early headbolt (16480-83) looks like next to the L85-91(16480-85A) inner headbolt:


Last edited by ChuckB; 02-16-2012 at 11:13 PM.
ChuckB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 02:01 AM   #8
AlicecFrerichs
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: yon
Posts: 2
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

If my thoughts are right about how long the threads are

AlicecFrerichs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 02:13 AM   #9
ChuckB
Senior Member
 
ChuckB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 122
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlicecFrerichs View Post
If my thoughts are right about how long the threads are

Not sure what you are asking me (?)
ChuckB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 04:34 AM   #10
Dragstews
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Also Lost in the Sixties
Posts: 7,717
Send a message via Yahoo to Dragstews
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Gee-Golly.....Miss Molly.

Are the Cylinder studs in up-side down....???



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Buy them Books, Send them to School and what do they do..??
Eat the backs off of the dang books..!!
(Wonder what happen to that Brownie..??)

Last edited by Dragstews; 02-17-2012 at 05:37 AM.
Dragstews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 06:56 AM   #11
Hogridenfool
Senior Member
 
Hogridenfool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: chicago
Posts: 179
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Yes they were installed wrong from the factory I was told,the studs are torque to yield,installed like this they can't tighten properly so what happnes is it is putting torque on the case and threads not on the stud,so the when it expands and contracts it will loosen and leak or blow head gaskets,plus torquing like this can pull out the threads and or crack the cases,I've seen it many times cracking the cases.
when you install new ones use a stud installer,or use a head bolt put a small ball bearing in side it and use a 3/8 impact wrench to install it dont go goofy with itjust to tighten it,dont try using a tougue wrench you'll bend them...

Last edited by Hogridenfool; 02-17-2012 at 07:02 AM. Reason: mor info
Hogridenfool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 07:49 AM   #12
ChuckB
Senior Member
 
ChuckB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 122
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

So you are telling me that my manual is wrong?







even if they were upside down, and they might be.. I don't doubt you.. it would't make a difference concerning my original 3 1/2 thread problem/question..

If I flipped them around, the shoulder would never touch the cases.. if it did, then the exposed legenth would be less than the 5.75 "..

Also the picture identifies the stud as "1987 1/2"

now I am really confused..
ChuckB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 08:57 AM   #13
Dragstews
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Also Lost in the Sixties
Posts: 7,717
Send a message via Yahoo to Dragstews
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

.......Question........??

How tight was the headbolts going on when they screw down on the stud..??

This is before they made contact with the head....Just the threads on the studs...

The reason I'm asking this is......

On the studs, one end (that goes into the case) will have what's called an interference thread.. This is so they will bite into the case threaded hole..
Get a grip, so to speak..

The headbolts will spin on really easy on the end of the stud...(The end without that interference thread)

May be best to give a call to the manufacture that made them and ask..
See what they got to say.
Some makers of these studs, don't have that lip...Think Delkton, Feuling and ARP have there own game plan in place.

http://colonymachine.com/

May also be a grand idea for the stud end that does go into the case.
(Use some Blue or Red locktight) It will act as a seal so oil cannot weep up the threads...

Last edited by Dragstews; 02-17-2012 at 10:03 AM.
Dragstews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:09 AM   #14
DarkGoat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 443
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Did you fellas read my post? If not, ignore this one too. If so, since I addressed these issues, did I do it in a way that was confusing? Or boring, so the detail was ignored? Just asking.
DarkGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:28 AM   #15
Dragstews
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Also Lost in the Sixties
Posts: 7,717
Send a message via Yahoo to Dragstews
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGoat View Post

Did you fellas read my post? Just asking.
I did....It was very informative and right-on.

What I'm wanting Chuck to do is question his work....
He's a novice (Green as a blade of Grass) in this area and may be prone to make mistakes....
Especially when dealing with after-market parts and factory upgrades.

Unlike many of us that has Been there and Done that....

Last edited by Dragstews; 02-17-2012 at 01:40 PM.
Dragstews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:44 AM   #16
DarkGoat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 443
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

I sure wasn't questioning your motives Dragstews, it is just that a lot of my posts seem to fall on deaf ears and my thoughts are more to refine my delivery. I try to be as accurate as I'm able and I don't usually respond unless I'm sure. Maybe I should get a flashy Avatar? Maybe I should just shrug it off as usual, but I do like to contribute.
DarkGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 09:52 AM   #17
Dragstews
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Also Lost in the Sixties
Posts: 7,717
Send a message via Yahoo to Dragstews
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Your cool....

In the contents of what you say...Shows wisdom and expertise..

As far as The Bells and Whistles (Flashy Avatar), Don't see the need...

Please do continual making posts....Your advise is indeed headed..
Dragstews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 10:21 AM   #18
DarkGoat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 443
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

I'll stop pouting now.
DarkGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 08:50 PM   #19
ChuckB
Senior Member
 
ChuckB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 122
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Didn't mean to cause any flack

I guess I sould have kept my question simple:

How come when I use the parts shown in the parts manual and assemble by the repair manual that I only have 3 1/2 threads before torquing?

Got my new Cometic gaskets tonight. I have decide to ditch the washers.. Install the studs with the shoulder down.. now I have plenty of thread. . The bike ran 10 years just like this with no problems. I asked a friend tonight and when I told him about the washers, he didn't know what I was talking about. he has built a number of Evo's and never used them.

I will let yall know how it works out. Thanks again..

Hey Jesse, that green remark really hurt..

Last edited by ChuckB; 02-18-2012 at 07:32 AM. Reason: put up instead of down
ChuckB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 08:53 PM   #20
Dragstews
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Also Lost in the Sixties
Posts: 7,717
Send a message via Yahoo to Dragstews
Default Re: '86 Evo top end rebuild

Sorry....Didn't mean anything by it...
You can call me names if you want to...

Just don't call me late for Supper...

BTY...Nice Hone Pattern....

Last edited by Dragstews; 02-18-2012 at 07:50 PM.
Dragstews is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:34 AM.