Timing is everything...

[Kuda]

Not sure if this qualifies as a tech post, but hopefully someone will learn from my stupidity. As some of you know (too many) I've been having on again off again starting problems with my old '49 panchop. The motor is basically stock and original, except for FLH cams (it's an FL), valve springs, 8.5 -1 pistons, and a new G-5 mag (no battery). Running a CV carb now, but ran an S&S before. Sometimes it would fire first kick, sometimes not for 50-100 kicks (not lyin' here, ask anyone on the Gypsy run). When it was a bitch to start, it also didn't hold an idle well, had to run about 1100 rpm and keep a hand on the throttle or it would cough and die. Even take offs were affected, 'cause if you let it drop below 1100 on take offs it would also die. Been that way since I first got it running, just figured it was a G-5 thang...

So back up three months ago. I'm riding through the mountains and noticed it was pinging on long uphills. Bad gas? So I fill up again, this time with 94 octane, and same thing. Hmm..must be a little lean I'm thinking. So out comes the 185 main and in goes a 190 main (CV, remember). And the manifold gets pressure tested for leaks, just 'cause (no leaks). End up riding it through the same mountains, it's better, but not much. Must be too much advance, thinks I. So I back out a couple of degrees of advance. Again, a little better, but not much. No mountain riding for while, so I can't tell if it's better or worse. Then I ride it to Sturgis and such, and except for maybe 4-6 times, it runs great, starts well. So I think I've got it nailed. Until the Gypsy run a few weeks later, when it's an absolute MONSTER to start, more than a few times. Back into the garage I go...

Check plugs (plug chop): look good, maybe a hair lean, suprising since I upped the main jet. Pressure test intake again: no leaks. Check fuel supply, no leaks, plugs, or dirt. Check pushrod adjustment: needed a bit of tightening on a couple, but none were too tight already. So what's left? Don't have a spare condenser to try, but the one in there checks OK, points look great. Then it hits me: maybe I'm chasing my tail here. What if the motor was too *retarded*, and it was *overheating* that was causing it to ping? Hmm...so I re-time it, a bit more advanced than I've ever run it before. Kick, kick, varrroooom!!!! Idle sounds better, throttle response crisper. Take it for a ride and there's a very noticable power increase, too. Might be on to something here.... Find a nice hill (no mountains around here, but a couple medium hills. Roll on in fourth gear...not a trace of pinging. Shut it off, fill the tank, wait 15 minutes, which usually really pisses off the kick start gods, requiring profuse offerings of sweat and swear words. Kick, kick, varroooom!! Settles into a nice idle, around 800-900 rpm. Not the cool "chicken-soup, chicken-soup" that folks love, but certainly not racing along at 1100 rpm, either. So maybe, just maybe, I've got it this time. Time will tell. I'm planning to put some more miles on it in the next couple of weeks (Nags Head, NC maybe, and Hanover, PA), so we'll see what happens...

-Kuda
'49 panchop

[todd]

glad to hear things are going well. come to arlington tonight and lets give it another road test

[2_wheel_nation]

you're probably gonna drop 15lbs from the loss of leg muscle!

[Kuda]

Originally Posted by todd

glad to hear things are going well. come to arlington tonight and lets give it another road test

No can do brother Todd. Tonight's plans are *much* more exciting than bombing around VA and DC with a bunch of chopper jockeys. Tonight I get to...wait for it...hold your breath...hear it comes...shop for a birthday present for my 8 year old niece! Can you even IMAGINE the excitment? The thrills?!

-Kuda (yeah, me either)
'49 panchop

[Dr. Benway]

Originally Posted by Kuda

Tonight I get to...wait for it...hold your breath...hear it comes...shop for a birthday present for my 8 year old niece! Can you even IMAGINE the excitment? The thrills?!

-Kuda (yeah, me either)
'49 panchop

"Uncle Kuda...is he the one with the GIANT right leg?"

[Kuda]

Originally Posted by Dr. Benway

"Uncle Kuda...is he the one with the GIANT right leg?"

Close! He's the one with the giant right *knee*. That's the one that's been rebuilt. Twice. But I usually kick with the left leg. At least until it gives out, then I switch back and forth...

-Kuda

[todd]

Originally Posted by Kuda

No can do brother Todd. Tonight's plans are *much* more exciting than bombing around VA and DC with a bunch of chopper jockeys. Tonight I get to...wait for it...hold your breath...hear it comes...shop for a birthday present for my 8 year old niece! Can you even IMAGINE the excitment? The thrills?!

-Kuda (yeah, me either)
'49 panchop

ah well pick out something cool for her. and we'll catch ya next time

[Rocks Chops]

How many degrees would you say you advanced it?

[Ed]

kuda, kuda, kuda

congrats. the lack of gypsy coffee did you in on the run.

[Kuda]

Originally Posted by Rocks Chops

How many degrees would you say you advanced it?

I've never had any luck using a timing light on that thing, the mark jumps around all over the place and even using a clean sert tool the light (and I) get bathed in hot oil. If I had to guesstimate, I'd say about 3-4 degrees more. UPDATE: Tried it again last night, stone cold motor, and no dice, 30 kicks and no fire. Back to the drawing board...

-Kuda
'49 panchop (cantankerous old bitch)

[kevinhog]

Sounds like intermitant igniton bullshit to me....Call Don Zig and get a hunt mag, it will make you happy, though it will also make you broke.

[jnukes]

great job Kuda. Could have sworn it was going to be an intake leak. Keep us posted.

[Capino]

Hey if you want I'll pull my mm74 off the shovel and you can try that to see if it narrow's your problem down.

[chopperking]

Originally Posted by Capino

Hey if you want I'll pull my mm74 off the shovel and you can try that to see if it narrow's your problem down.

now that's probably the nicest thing i've heard all week, snifff
see ya

[69GSCAL]

TTT
Any updates on this.

[Kuda]

Originally Posted by Capino

Hey if you want I'll pull my mm74 off the shovel and you can try that to see if it narrow's your problem down.

That's damn cool of you to offer. Seriously. But if I'm not mistaken, I'd have to shave off the relay mount to fit a MM on there, right? If not, I might just take you up on that one. We can have a mag-swapin' party...

-Kuda

[Kuda]

Originally Posted by 69GSCAL

TTT
Any updates on this.

Maybe. One thing that's driving me nuts is that this bike seems to be more sensitive than my ex girlfriend. Every small change, whether it's timing, carb, or even idle mixture, means a completely new starting procedure. So what I've been doing is trying a new starting procedure every day, and writing it down so I won't forget. The last three days, it's fired first kick stone cold, without even one primer kick. Two wicks of the throttle, ignition on, find compression, and kick. Bang, away she goes. Unfortunately, I've only been able to practice cold starts, 'cause by the time I get off work, it's cold again. This weekend I hope to give it another try, and I'll report back on Monday what I found...

-Kuda
'49 panchop

[Kuda]

Originally Posted by kevinhog

Sounds like intermitant igniton bullshit to me....Call Don Zig and get a hunt mag, it will make you happy, though it will also make you broke.

I don't think it's ignition, Buck checked the mag out when it was new and gave it clean bill of health. As for expensive, I'd be really surprised if a Hunt was more expensive than a Morris G-5...

-Kuda (*really* surprised...)
'49 panchop

[69GSCAL]

Bikes are a new thing to me, but I've been cars for a longtime and you're problem immediately makes me think of the common problem of adding headers to a car and the extra heat resulting in hard starting when hot.

With a kick start it's obviously not as simple as that, unless you're pussying out because of the radiant heat.

Perhaps a lean mixture or retarded timing is causing the engine to get too hot and it's affecting your ignition. I've never dealt with a mag so I can't really give any insight into it.

Hope this weekend provides some answers for you.

[Dr. Benway]

Originally Posted by 69GSCAL

...unless you're pussying out because of the radiant heat.

I've seen this man kick his bike.
This is not the case.