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Old 05-01-2008, 10:36 AM   #1
KustomZ
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Default Starter Jackshaft problem

I am working on a 76 shovelhead with an aftermarket outer primary cover. I have had starter issues for quite some time and decided to take a little time and fix it finally. I noticed with the primary cover on that the thrust washer on the end of the shaft had a pretty good gap from the shoulder on the shaft to the primary cover and decided to do a little measuring. The only thing engaging in the primary cover bearing is the pinion nut which is .040" diameter undersize and only engaging in the bearing .025". My question is has anyone else run into this? I am wondering if it would hurt anything to make an extended nut that will fix the problem or anyone makes the parts to fix the problem? Any help or input would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:29 AM   #2
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

It might help if you were able to post a pic.
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

I will get a pic posted tomorrow and try to explain it better.
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

You do realize that mean you hit the starter button, the starter solenoid pushes the jackshaft forward quite a ways, right? So the shaft sitting in a static position is not where the jackshaft actuates the starter ring gear.

If it's making a grinding noise when you hit the button, it is probably a fucked up jackshaft.

Pics would help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KustomZ View Post
I am working on a 76 shovelhead with an aftermarket outer primary cover. I have had starter issues for quite some time and decided to take a little time and fix it finally. I noticed with the primary cover on that the thrust washer on the end of the shaft had a pretty good gap from the shoulder on the shaft to the primary cover and decided to do a little measuring. The only thing engaging in the primary cover bearing is the pinion nut which is .040" diameter undersize and only engaging in the bearing .025". My question is has anyone else run into this? I am wondering if it would hurt anything to make an extended nut that will fix the problem or anyone makes the parts to fix the problem? Any help or input would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-02-2008, 02:19 AM   #5
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

When you hit the starter button the starter drive should advance on the shaft. If the shaft moves much it is going to disengage from the starter motor.
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:37 AM   #6
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

It's limited in it's travel by that semi-circular arm that holds it in. As long as the cover is on, there would be no way to have the shaft push far enough out to fall out.

One other thing to consider is that the thrust washer that goes between the bearing in the outside cover and the shaft is not supposed to be there on all years of the e-start shovel. I can't remember which years, but I have seen different blow-up diagrams of the shovel starter that had and didn't have that washer on the end.

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When you hit the starter button the starter drive should advance on the shaft. If the shaft moves much it is going to disengage from the starter motor.
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:08 AM   #7
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

just a thought, but i think the 65-69 starter shaft is shorter than the 70-84, which, if the 65-69 shaft is in the later primary, it might be like what you are describing. I had some questions about this on another board (http://www.network54.com/Forum/47850...imary+on+65-69) , but I still haven't gotten around to making the swap, so.........
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:15 PM   #8
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

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Originally Posted by Scott McKelvey View Post
just a thought, but i think the 65-69 starter shaft is shorter than the 70-84, which, if the 65-69 shaft is in the later primary, it might be like what you are describing. I had some questions about this on another board (http://www.network54.com/Forum/47850...imary+on+65-69) , but I still haven't gotten around to making the swap, so.........

Okay I haven't even thought about it being the wrong shaft, but that would make sense. Anyone got any measurements from either style of shaft for comparison?
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Old 05-02-2008, 02:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

I have been searching for some dimensions on the shafts with no luck. Anyone have info on this?
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Ok got a new shaft and it's the same as what I already have. So I know I have the right shaft. When I hit the starter button the starter spins, but doesn't engage enough to spin the motor. I have posted a pic to try and show my problem. In the pic the bushing the arrow points to looks to me like it sits in too far leaving less than an 1/8" of ring gear exposed for the starter drive to engage. Before I owned the bike it had a primary belt drive installed and what I'm wondering is if the pulley on the clutch basket makes the ring gear sit out further causing my problem. Anyone ever deal with an aftermarket belt drive? Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

H-D did some mod to the Cover for the FXB check your casting #'s and see what you got.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:14 AM   #12
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Hi Guys. I'm having the same problem that KustomZ is having. My starter jack shaft looks exactly like the one he has in the photo.

I have a 77 FX superglide. It came with an open primary setup. I wanted to install electric start so I got an inner primary case from CCI (28-063) and an electric start kit from V-Twin MFG (32-0007) and a belt drive clutch shell that runs a BDL 30853ST (1.5")belt.

The end result is exactly like Kustomz's photo. There is approx 1/4" end play in the starter jackshaft. But even if I shim up the end play with thrust washers (outer cover jackshaft thrust washer 31502-65) It still wont fix the problem of the jackshaft end nut being right on top of the clutch shell ring gear.

The end result of this setup is starter gears and clutch ring gears getting ruined over time. Can anyone offer up any suggestions?
Thank you in advance
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:23 AM   #13
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

The 70 and up shaft is 7" and I can't find my 69 and down shaft but its about 3/4 shorter,in the pic.the cover on the left is 69 down,right is 70 and up,as you can see the bearing support is way differant and as for the shaft moving out,that should'nt move out at all,just the starter drive on the shaft to engage the ring....yours looks short to me,that hope that helps....
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbikemike View Post
The 70 and up shaft is 7" and I can't find my 69 and down shaft but its about 3/4 shorter,in the pic.the cover on the left is 69 down,right is 70 and up,as you can see the bearing support is way differant and as for the shaft moving out,that should'nt move out at all,just the starter drive on the shaft to engage the ring....hope that helps....
GBM
Also the later Belt Drive Primary's was diff. in that area.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

The started gear can't slide out far enough to engage the basket,so either the shaft is wrong or nut [or spacer,left hand BTW] is.....I come up with 2 part numbers for that 31531 is 65-82,31311 is 83 up...don't know if that helps or not...
GBM

Also,make sure you disconnect the battery,it WILL bite you....earth disconnect switch comes is handy for shovels,highly recommended
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Thanks Green. I am aware of the differences in the outter cases. Thanks for posting the photo. First off, it appears that my starter jackshaft is too short, but it is the longer 31482-70 70-84. But I dont see an option anywhere for a longer shaft to gt that nut over far enough to allow the bendix gear to engage.

So im looking at diagrams of the later shovelhead starter setup. The one used for the sturgis belt drive models, 82-84 FLH, and 80-84 FXSB. This as a different system with a different jackshaft, starter houing and nut. There are a couple components that still interchange with the older setup.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Thanks Green for those part #'s. The first # is the one that came with my kit, the nuts-pacer all in one. The second is the spacer (without nut) for thee later style electric start setup I described above.
Another facit of this issue it the throw of the bendix from the soleniod. If you look closely at KustomZ's photo, you will see the bendix sitting far back from the ring gear.
I wonder If I did move the shaft nut out farther if the solenoid would be over extending the bendix gear, and not be able to pull it back, or it become in a bind.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

According to my research, there are 4. 65 to 69, 70 to 84, and the belt drive one, from 80 to 85, and the last, is 80 to 85 FLT. There is also two different starter motor setups, and either can be made to fit. One sits further away from the inner primary, which would make your shaft short, even if it is the correct length for your year bike. The shaft should sit only a few thousants from tight, with the thrust washer in place. The bendix sits far enough behind the ring gear for clearance, and the thrust washer keeps the shaft from disengaging the drive gear and ruining your day with a exploded housing. If the shaft has to much end play, and it allows the bendix to "bottom out" against the ring gear, it will most likely hangup and not disengage at all or until you rev the motor. I am not pushing any one AM company, but JP has a great tech help section.
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

I know this is an old post but i saw what these guys were going through while i was researching my own starter to ring gear engagement issue and realized they had the same problem I was having. the stopper for the starter clutch was sitting right over the ring gear and not allowing the bendix gear to engage the ring gear enough..its almost like the starter jack shaft is about 1/4 inch to short. I would blow teeth off my ring gear even though all the parts seemed right and I had the 7' longest starter jack shaft. this problem may be from a mix match of parts, different transmission with slightly longer output shaft, wrong inner primary, who knows. I actually made the same tiny spacer that one of the guys in this post made out of a 5/16 socket which would fit under the starter clutch stopper on the end of the starter shaft but realized that once this spacer was installed i was weakening another area. there was only about 3/16 of the starter shafts splines engaged in the starter clutch when the clutch was all the way out under load and in the ring gear cranking which couldn't last long. I was tired of thinking of ways to space everything out further and making it last when I found a starter housing gear with a 1/4 inch step on one side of it that fixed all my problems. dont know what model bike it was from but I have now purchased 2 of them on ebay and they were listed as shovelhead FL/FX OEM starter gears. in the pic i have attached you can see the difference between the standard flat looking starter gear and the one with the 1/4 raised area. this little extra 1/4 inch when added to the 1/8 or so of engagement I already had put my benix gear almost all the way across the ring gear. if you find one, install it with the raised area out toward the ring gear. installing it backwards would make the starter gear and the tiny gear on the end of the starter no have enough engagement. again, I know this is an old post but I was hoping this info might help someone else who is having this same problem. the trick I guess is finding the gear. maybe print a picture and ask a few shops? or just search ebay ? good luck
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Old 12-02-2013, 02:57 PM   #20
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

More info, is better than less info. So it will help those of us that see this thread. Seems that I have seen those offset gears before, but never had one in a bike. It is the small stuff, that makes this site what it is.
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:53 PM   #21
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Great info. Finished building an 81 shovel with belt drive and having same issues. So it may have been old spots but still helpful. Thanx
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Old 10-18-2015, 04:55 PM   #22
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I can't seem to find one of those starter shaft gears with the 1/4" offset like in the previous photo. Does anyone know where to get one?
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:26 PM   #23
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

OEM 31429-67
j&p 3800100
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:35 PM   #24
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Thank you so so so much! I guess I wasn't finding it because its listed for sportster. Again thanks.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:37 PM   #25
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And thank you Supersonictoys for your post. That is good info for anyone tackling this particular issue.
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Old 12-28-2016, 01:55 PM   #26
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

I haven't posted much but I find discussions like this very helpful. I'm having the opposite problem. Every time I hook the battery up, the starter spins. Since I have been through the new solenoid, charged battery, new starter, the best I can figure the solenoid is not fully closing when disengaged from the ring gear. I can manually move the fork to engage and disengage from the ring gear without it hanging up.

I have an 82 FXWG that I am putting together from a pile of parts. I do know the inner primary is not the original.

Any recommendations or additional places I can look for info? I'd rather not put on a manual solenoid if I can avoid it.

Thanks
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Old 12-28-2016, 06:20 PM   #27
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Seems to me that I have had that problem before, and I believe the cure was that the main wires were hooked up in reverse. Not sure what system you have, but if you don't have the plunger spring in the plunger on a stock system, they do similar things, since they can't completely return the plunger.

And then, maybe I am not understanding your problem.
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Old 12-28-2016, 07:25 PM   #28
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Springs are in correct or at least how the manual says they should be. When you say main wires, what are you referring to?
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Old 12-28-2016, 07:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Solenoid long stud goes to battery or relay from battery.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:15 PM   #30
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Got that correct, thanks.
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Old 12-29-2016, 06:32 AM   #31
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Are you sure the inner primary is the correct one, and the starter jackshaft?? The last few years of Shovelheads, the inner primary was different, not sure what year they changed. And, there are three or four different jackshafts available. Some photos would be priceless, like the selinoid you are using, the casting numbers on the inner primary, jackshaft and associated parts.
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Old 12-29-2016, 01:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Shovithead- I appreciate your time and knowledge. I'll see if I can carve out some time this weekend to get back in to this project, take some pics and sort out this issue. Its been too long off the road.
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Old 12-30-2016, 06:43 AM   #33
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

I am in no bigger hurry than you are. So when you get time, do what you can. There are so many possible combinations to confuse things, so it could be something as simple as a missing thrust washer, to the wrong inner primary, or starter housing/etc. Even if it is not me that gets it in the end, it will be somebody. Just don't give up.
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Old 01-02-2017, 01:39 PM   #34
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Glad to see this thread is still going.

My starter problem still isnt solved.

Seems that Ive got all the mechanical issues ironed out but the kickback on the compression stroke is causing my primary drive belt to strip off teeth and eventually snap. I have a pretty good battery, and have retarted the timing a little but suppose I can retard it even more. Every time I retard, I loose a little power. Im running a Dyna S point-less ignition with centrifigul advance weights

Happens usually when bike is warmed up or hot after a short stop like fillup of gas. the starter will crank once then the kickback occurs causing a horrific screaching sound which i have duduced to be the starter clutch (bendix?). Apparently that starter clutch takes the brunt but puts a tremendous strain on the starter pinion and other Parts too. Its a new Accell starter clutch to boot.

It doesnt do the kick back every time, but when the motor well warmed up, it will kick back about 1 out of every 5 starts. Im wondering if sticking advance weights might be contributing.

For years I never had the problem..Would always start like a champ.

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Old 01-03-2017, 04:20 PM   #35
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Per ShovitHead's suggestion and renewed enthusiasm to get my shovel back on the road here are a few pics and of course some more questions.

I did not see a Harley casting number on my inner primary, but found the markings on the pics attached. I'm pretty sure this is not a Harley primary, any suggestions to the manufacturer?

Also after some more poking around, I found that the channel that holds the pins of the starter drive lever is sitting flush with the primary. I believe that is not allowing the jackshaft to retract fully and holding the solenoid open.

I figure I either I find a jack shaft that will work with my inner primary or the correct inner primary. I'm also open to other suggestions.

As for parts, I have an Accel solenoid, JP Cycles solenoid plunger hardware kit and starter drive lever, the jackshaft is the original, I believe.
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Old 01-13-2017, 06:23 PM   #36
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

After confirming Shovithead's comments, looking at my parts manual, the inner primaries are different for the 1980 and up FXWGs

So my question is how can I tell if an inner primary is correct?
What in the casting number should I look for to make sure it is for an FXWG vs FX, FXE, etc?

I've asked a few questions of the sellers of primaries on Ebay and not much help, other than it fits a shovelhead.

I apologize if this seems elementary, this is my first crack at a basket case. I appreciate any knowledge shared.
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:09 AM   #37
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I have my 78 Shovel apart right now but may have mocked up this weekend where I can measure. I'm building up a 5 speed in a 4 spd. case to replace my worn out and case cracked 4 speed.
Right off the bat sumpin in your pic grabs me:
The nut on the end is stopping your starter drive from getting a bite. It looks to me like it is stopping the movement of the drive far too shallow. The movement of the shaft is negligible so the shaft and nut has to be long enough NOT inhibit full engagement. Another thing that looks weird is that big cavity or passage in the top of the chaincase, not typical Shovelhead fare.
Do you have the Hitachi, or the Prestolite style starter?
One thing you can do is take the primary and lay it face up and drop your jackshaft in there and measure the elevation (or lack of), the drive gear front face, from the gasket surface then install the the jackshaft in its static position in the inner primary, thru the starter gear and engaged into the starter with all nuts and bolts snugged. They should be about the gasket thickness apart in their position. Also, you can look closely at the teeth of the drive for the wear pattern, and they should have about 70% of the drive tooth depth engaged.
Sumpn just doesn't look right.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:43 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by hotrodjohn71 View Post
Glad to see this thread is still going.

My starter problem still isnt solved.

Seems that Ive got all the mechanical issues ironed out but the kickback on the compression stroke is causing my primary drive belt to strip off teeth and eventually snap. I have a pretty good battery, and have retarted the timing a little but suppose I can retard it even more. Every time I retard, I loose a little power. Im running a Dyna S point-less ignition with centrifigul advance weights

Happens usually when bike is warmed up or hot after a short stop like fillup of gas. the starter will crank once then the kickback occurs causing a horrific screaching sound which i have duduced to be the starter clutch (bendix?). Apparently that starter clutch takes the brunt but puts a tremendous strain on the starter pinion and other Parts too. Its a new Accell starter clutch to boot.

It doesnt do the kick back every time, but when the motor well warmed up, it will kick back about 1 out of every 5 starts. Im wondering if sticking advance weights might be contributing.

For years I never had the problem..Would always start like a champ.

Sounds like you have it diagnoised yourself, with the advance unit. Pull it out, and see how much play you have in the pivot pins, and if both spring pins are present and not bent(the little ones, one sets the advance against the cam, the other makes sure the cam is in the correct position, to keep the small point as the front cylinder), and that the springs are able to completely close(so that each wind has on clearance between). I always apply a good quality, sticky grease to the pivots and on the advance point shaft.

Not sure how you are timing it, but as you do, make sure you read the plugs, so you don't get it to far advanced, and hurt the motor bad. I retard mine about the width of the timing hole, which gives about 2 to 3 degrees of retard, if you put the timing mark on the LH side of the opening.
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72 Chevy C30 truck
73 Custom Shovel
72 XLH
70 XLH
69 XLH
68 XLCH *project*
66 FLH *Daily Rider*
66 Shovel/Pan/Pan
65 XLCH *project*
60 XLCH Doc Dytch*project*
51 FL *project*
42 UL*project*
Non Dated, S&S Panhead with 65 swingarm *project*
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:55 AM   #39
shovithead
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMXB View Post
After confirming Shovithead's comments, looking at my parts manual, the inner primaries are different for the 1980 and up FXWGs

So my question is how can I tell if an inner primary is correct?
What in the casting number should I look for to make sure it is for an FXWG vs FX, FXE, etc?

I've asked a few questions of the sellers of primaries on Ebay and not much help, other than it fits a shovelhead.

I apologize if this seems elementary, this is my first crack at a basket case. I appreciate any knowledge shared.
First, the end of the jackshaft looks like it was stored in a bucket of rust. My first rule when working on the inside of any mechanical part, clean, clean, clean, until your fingerprints are smooth. Then put together. But, all joking aside(even if I am serious about being surgically clean inside), if the rest of the starter parts are that dirty, it could be half the problem. Or not.

Put the inner primary(which could, or may not be the problem) together like you were ready to install the outer primary cover. Take a straight edge(ruler, or anything that is straight and about a foot or so long) and lay it across the inner primary, letting it hover above or next to the jackshaft, to see how far away the shoulder on the end of the jackshaft is from the edge of the primary, or how far out it sticks. Write down that measurement. Now, take the outer primary, and see where the jackshaft plugs into the bearing, it will either be flat across the gasket area, or set back away from the gasket area. Write down that measurement, either flat or recessed. There should be a large bronze thrust washer that goes on the jackshaft plug end. Allow for that thickness. Now, with some math, you should be able to see if the jackshaft fits into the bearing correctly, or to short, or long. Also, note where the teeth of the Bendix are in relation to the ring gear on the clutch hub. As long as it is close, but clears a minimum of 1/8 inch, it is in the correct position.

Pull the jackshaft and make some photos of it, along with a measurement end to end.
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72 Chevy C30 truck
73 Custom Shovel
72 XLH
70 XLH
69 XLH
68 XLCH *project*
66 FLH *Daily Rider*
66 Shovel/Pan/Pan
65 XLCH *project*
60 XLCH Doc Dytch*project*
51 FL *project*
42 UL*project*
Non Dated, S&S Panhead with 65 swingarm *project*
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:14 AM   #40
joe49
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Last picture in post 35. How come you have the spring on the wrong side of the lever?
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Old 01-15-2017, 04:53 PM   #41
shovithead
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Excellent call on the spring. When I looked them over, I was thinking something in there looked odd, but never did grab my manual. That, could well indeed, be the problem. Pushy, not pully.

So, to save you from having to explain.....


Take the actuator arm out, selinoid out, reverse the spring to the outside of the push arm. Reinstall, and test. Test it without any oil, in case it does not fix it, and add oil, if it does. Saves making a big mess, again. Not to mention the liquid gold.
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Keep the Old Iron on the road.



72 Chevy C30 truck
73 Custom Shovel
72 XLH
70 XLH
69 XLH
68 XLCH *project*
66 FLH *Daily Rider*
66 Shovel/Pan/Pan
65 XLCH *project*
60 XLCH Doc Dytch*project*
51 FL *project*
42 UL*project*
Non Dated, S&S Panhead with 65 swingarm *project*
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Old 01-26-2017, 03:29 PM   #42
JMXB
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

Thank you all, I'll give that a shot! I appreciate all of the experienced eyes on this.
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:58 PM   #43
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Default Re: Starter Jackshaft problem

I wanted to give a quick update as I received some valuable advice from the board here. Once I moved the spring to the opposite side of the lever, the solenoid problem cured itself.

I have now my shovel running and once I unpack the rest of my parts (we had a cross country move recently) I'll get her on the road and ride her for a bit.

Then I'll create a proper build thread with pics and of course some more questions.
Thanks all
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