1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build" - Page 9 - The Jockey Journal Board

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Old 01-24-2017, 11:44 AM   #161
newman
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

A bit of technical information I thought I'd add about the driveline.

The whole frame was designed around being able to run a 40T rear sprocket. Secondly, I really wanted to run a BDL "quiet clutch" drive, because it's substantially narrower than the stock clutch hub, since the clutch goes inside the pulley instead of next to it.

Unfortunately, there are two problems with this. The BDL quiet clutch drive is a 45/68 setup, and it only comes with splined front pulleys. I could get around the spline by running a later sprocket shaft, but I was trying to run the tapered shaft. So I thought, I'll just run a 39T BDL front pulley for a knuck and a mix it with the rear pulley.

My shovelhead (and many other bikes) run a 41/61 primary and a 24/48 final. I like that ratio.

41/61 X 24/48 = .336

Since I was now locked in with 3 of my pulleys, I could adjust the fourth to match.

Turns out that

39/68 * 23/40 = .329

Pretty close.

So I went ahead and designed the frame that way. The size of the front pulley had a lot to do with where the frame rails were located and so on. Also, using a smaller front pulley made the transmission move back to about 13.5" vs the standard 12 13/16

Then, tragedy stuck. This past weekend, when I was installing the drive, I noticed that the belt did not fit on the front pulley. Dang.

I spent a lot of time doing some research (also called BDL but they were little to no help). Turns out the knuckdrives use a gates HTD toothprofile and the other drive style uses a Powergrip GT2 profile.

BDL said they would not make a custom pulley. Where I am at right now is I have a Gates 40T taper lock pulley that I am going to adapt to the knuck tapered shaft. It’s nut ugly, per se, but it’s not awesome looking. I think if I have it plated, it will look a lot better. I am going to try to get it on tonight and see how it looks. More later.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:40 PM   #162
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

As a cabinetmaker by trade I love your use of wood as a former. Especially Oak being my favorite wood to work with.

I would guess that running the grain from left to right instead of top to bottom meant that the end grain gave the former more staying power under the heat of the metal.

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Old 01-24-2017, 12:47 PM   #163
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

One of those companies sells interchangeable engine-pulley hubs. With that as my inspiration I turned down a worn-out pulley for the splined center, leaving a flange with threaded holes to make a 530 front sprocket. So why couldn't someone of your talents salvage a tapered hub and graft it (welds, bolts or otherwise) to the chosen pulley. But if you spent the time and wound up with a plan to modify a taperlock I am not telling you anything that probably hasnt crossed your mind.

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Old 01-24-2017, 01:14 PM   #164
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Boy View Post
As a cabinetmaker by trade I love your use of wood as a former. Especially Oak being my favorite wood to work with.

I would guess that running the grain from left to right instead of top to bottom meant that the end grain gave the former more staying power under the heat of the metal.
The die actually didn't fail, the radius was just too great for the for do bend smoothly. I was having to heat up 8" of material and it just wasn't consistent enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisco Cal View Post
One of those companies sells interchangeable engine-pulley hubs. With that as my inspiration I turned down a worn-out pulley for the splined center, leaving a flange with threaded holes to make a 530 front sprocket. So why couldn't someone of your talents salvage a tapered hub and graft it (welds, bolts or otherwise) to the chosen pulley. But if you spent the time and wound up with a plan to modify a taperlock I am not telling you anything that probably hasnt crossed your mind.
That's basically what I am doing, there's just a third piece involved.

Original turned down hub is inside the taper lock bushing and that is inside the new pulley. I did get a steel taper lock bushing so I could weld it to the old pulley inner if needed.

This may just be temporary until I can come up with a better solution. I need to have the trans position nailed down ASAP so I can start getting the fender mounted permanently and begin construction on the oil tank.

Last edited by newman; 01-24-2017 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:48 PM   #165
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Does anyone have any opinions on using very short hardlines on a harley?

Remember that my oil lines essentially run thru the frame. So there would be about 6 oil lines with a banjo on each end that are only between 4 and 6 inches long. I would really prefer to not have to cram a rubber line in there if I don't have to.

Ideally I would like to use mild steel lines silver soldered into mild steel banjo fittings like this:

https://www.belmetric.com/solder-ban...42vdp8ho8vb5q1



The engineer in me says it will probably fail on a high runtime application, but if I'm being real, the total hours on this machine will be pretty low.

Anyone have any input to add?

The other option would be something like this with a rubber line, but I just think the hardline would look really clean.

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Old 01-24-2017, 05:21 PM   #166
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Would there be an elegant way to put a short piece inline for vibration isolation? Likely not, because they're so short... but something like a stainless flex-hose section in exhausts.
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:10 PM   #167
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

newman Not saying you math is wrong. But in automotive terms the equation is usually expressed. (61/41)X(48/24)=2.97= final drive ratio
Then 1 engine rev / 2.97 = .336 rear wheel revolution. Which is as your equation showed.
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Old 01-25-2017, 03:00 AM   #168
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

The original fuel line on my 39 was rigid(flared unions)
but i think the T/Y is brazed.
Oil lines rigid too but obviously no connections(brazed) in them.
No problem if no vibration?
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Old 01-25-2017, 05:50 AM   #169
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

In the old days they used to bend a little coil of hard line at the end of the line to soak up the vibrations between two devices, like an engine and a frame for example
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Old 01-25-2017, 09:31 AM   #170
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Wish you could buy that ripple section of pipe that turbo drains on OEM cars often used, pictured at top:

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Old 01-25-2017, 09:32 AM   #171
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe49 View Post
newman Not saying you math is wrong. But in automotive terms the equation is usually expressed. (61/41)X(48/24)=2.97= final drive ratio
Then 1 engine rev / 2.97 = .336 rear wheel revolution. Which is as your equation showed.

I figured it was improper convention, but I knew as long as I kept consistent, I'd be OK.
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Old 01-25-2017, 01:24 PM   #172
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

it is good to see the steady progress of this build, thanks for posting
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Old 01-25-2017, 01:29 PM   #173
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

i rigid mounted some oil lines many years ago without any issues, but I used copper tube which seemed less fragile with vibration than steel
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Old 01-25-2017, 04:21 PM   #174
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Has anyone ever used 5/16 diameter hardlines on an early bigtwin?

The orifices on the 1/8 npt fittings are always smaller that that ID. I'm going to maybe mock up a little flowbench to test. Just curious on any real world experience.
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Old 01-25-2017, 04:52 PM   #175
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Quote:
Originally Posted by newman View Post
Wish you could buy that ripple section of pipe that turbo drains on OEM cars often used, pictured at top:
Ha, yeah turbo plumbing was exactly the picture I had in my head...
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Old 01-26-2017, 08:16 AM   #176
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Quote:
Originally Posted by newman View Post
Has anyone ever used 5/16 diameter hardlines on an early bigtwin?

The orifices on the 1/8 npt fittings are always smaller that that ID. I'm going to maybe mock up a little flowbench to test. Just curious on any real world experience.
The restriction's resistance to flow is basically proportional to its length, so a short little small diameter at the fitting give a small amount of restriction, but a long, small diameter pipe give a much higher amount of restriction, and might need a bigger pump or higher pressure to get the same amount of flow. This is the reason that you often see a small orifice in a fitting or a port, and a much larger hose or tube. The small restriction controls the way it flows while the larger line reduces the pumping losses. For example you can squeeze honey through a 1/8" hole in the cap of its squeeze bottle, but try to squeeze honey through a seven inch long, 1/8" hose (the same size hole, but very long) and it is virtually impossible to get any honey through it. I could cite other examples of size of hole and length of hole but they would likely not be published here.

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Old 01-26-2017, 09:23 AM   #177
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Lost me on the honey thing
Squeeze honey on a 6" long hose?
With 6" hole?



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Old 01-26-2017, 09:26 AM   #178
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigidspeedtwin View Post
The restriction's resistance to flow is basically proportional to its length, so a short little small diameter at the fitting give a small amount of restriction, but a long, small diameter pipe give a much higher amount of restriction, and might need a bigger pump or higher pressure to get the same amount of flow. This is the reason that you often see a small orifice in a fitting or a port, and a much larger hose or tube. The small restriction controls the way it flows while the larger line reduces the pumping losses. For example you can squeeze honey through a small hole in a bottle's cap or lid, but try to squeeze honey through a six inch long hose the same size and it is virtually impossible. I could cite other examples of size of hole and length of hole but they would likely not be published here.
Completely agree. At some point the hose diameter become negligible, I wonder where that point is.

Based on some hotbikeweb testing, a twincam only uses 8 oz cold at idle, 0 oz hot at idle, 18.5 oz at 2500 rpm.

I imagine that a knucklehead uses much less. Anyway, I think I am going to do timed test at some point and see how the two react.
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Old 01-26-2017, 10:01 AM   #179
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

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Originally Posted by newman View Post
Completely agree. At some point the hose diameter become negligible, I wonder where that point is.

Based on some hotbikeweb testing, a twincam only uses 8 oz cold at idle, 0 oz hot at idle, 18.5 oz at 2500 rpm.

I imagine that a knucklehead uses much less. Anyway, I think I am going to do timed test at some point and see how the two react.
Hey, maybe I can teach YOU something here; wouldn't have bet on that! Twin Cams are high-pressure, low volume pumps. Our old bikes (Evo and back) are just the opposite... High volume, low pressure.

I suspect our pumps move WAY more fluid than a Twin Cam. Hook up a return line to an idling Evo-or-older Big Twin... gonna be a hell of a lot more oil than 8 oz. at idle.
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Old 01-26-2017, 10:16 AM   #180
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Default Re: 1940 SS Knucklehead: People's Champ 5 Build"

Hmm, makes sense really, although in their test their isn't any high pressure component, so it is really a pretty poor test of that type of pump. I am still interested in testing a configuration that goes

.21 to .38 hose to .21 for stock versus
.21 to .31 hard tube to .21 for what i'd like to run

under gravity flow conditions. I will post the results. I have heard of some aftermarket hardline kits having .25ID, but that's a bit of hearsay.
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