: Shovelhead/panhead motor question


oldschoolsoldier
07-01-2009, 11:38 PM
Okay this might be a dumb question but I would like to know......

I was at a local bike salvage place where they had a "shovel"head in the work bay. When I inquried about what year the shovel was the guy told me that it wasnt a shovel. When I pointed out to him that it had shovel rocker boxes on it he said that it was a pan bottom shovel top and that was why it wasnt considered a shovelhead.

Now I was under the impression that the older shovels were all made with pan lowers and shovel tops. So my question is since it has shovel tops wouldnt that make it a shovelhead?

Thanks for the help.

Toecutterp
07-01-2009, 11:47 PM
Get ready

BlackWolf
07-01-2009, 11:58 PM
Pan/Shovel, Generator Shovel, Slabside Shovel, Flatside Shovel, pick one. Its still a shovelhead regardless of what that guy says.

chopperkid13
07-02-2009, 12:00 AM
Who cares... Why would someone put shovel heads on a pan anyway? Pans Rule!

BlackWolf
07-02-2009, 12:03 AM
Harley did from 1966 to 1969. It was a panhead lower end and shovelhead top end

allcoamex
07-02-2009, 12:07 AM
I't could have been a 48-65 pan w/shovel heads. The genny motors get their names from the heads, hence Shovel "head". maybe that's what he meant panhead year bottom.years 65 lower pan shovel, 66 up shovelhead.So what year was it?. Fred

Destralo Roach
07-02-2009, 12:15 AM
It started way back in 1936 with the KNUCKLEHEAD!!! then H-D PUT Panheads ON THE KNUCKLE lowerend!!!!!! So there!!!!!

66-69 are Generater shovels, 48-65 OHV with pan heads, 36-47 OHV with overhead valves "called knuckleheads" The factory didnt call the OHV anything intill 66 when they started calling them "shovelheads"..........Roach.

oldschoolsoldier
07-02-2009, 12:28 AM
So what year was it?. Fred

All he said was "Its a 70 something...........I think and its for sale do you want to buy it? ." I asked how much and he wanted $15,500 for it!

I think the guy was just trying not to look like a douche in front of his dad who actually owns the yard but who knows.

Thanks for the info guys!

Liquid Choppers
07-02-2009, 01:13 AM
1936-1954 are generator cases although they are "roller bearing" bottom ends. 1955-1969 have generator cases although have the timken style bearings in the cases. you may put shovel heads on any of the generator cases, also referred to the "pan/shovel"

The best thing to do would be to check the numbers on the cases to figure out what year it is.

=JL=
07-02-2009, 01:14 AM
Who cares... Why would someone put shovel heads on a pan anyway?

Better breathing = more horsepower and torque.
Before Pans were quaint and "vintage", they were just old, and this was a very common performance mod.

Destralo Roach
07-02-2009, 01:33 AM
Better breathing = more horsepower and torque.
Before Pans were quaint and "vintage", they were just old, and this was a very common performance mod.


And because the shovelheads had shaft mounted rockers, they lasted longer then the panheads clamshell rockers......Roach.

jjayf
07-02-2009, 02:03 AM
hey roach do you know the actual horsepower gains through the years from FL knuckles pans and shovels ...were they significant...I'm not sure they were huge...

Capino
07-02-2009, 04:32 AM
Who cares... Why would someone put shovel heads on a pan anyway? Pans Rule!

I love pans but the generator shovel is the best looking motor in my opinion.

badassbrutus
07-02-2009, 06:48 AM
I heard the put shovel heads on back in the day for performance and better top end oiling.i bought a 55 pan engine with shovel heads from a old timer and that is what he said how tru it is I dont know but I do know the oiling part is true.

Larry T
07-02-2009, 08:22 AM
Shovel top end on panhead=latest hot set up of the 60s/70s.

JoeShovel
07-02-2009, 08:56 AM
Hells yeah....

66 shovel with 58 lower end... Gorgeous motor fo sho!!

jq49pan
07-02-2009, 10:00 AM
What ever year it says on the case then that what it is. If its older than a 65 then its a panhead no matter what someone replaced the top end with. +1 on your post chopperkid.

BigDawg
07-02-2009, 10:24 AM
If it's a 48-65, then it WAS a panhead and now has shovel heads on it...call it what you like. If it's a 66-69, then it's a shovelhead (I hate the term pan/shovel). If it's 70+, then it's in alternator cases and the dude is a dumbass, as Panheads (from Harley) were never offered in anything other than genny cases.

Generally when I'm talking to someone about a shovelhead, I'll ask whether it's a generator shovel or a cone shovel.

=JL=
07-02-2009, 10:37 AM
+1 on your post chopperkid.

+2, I wouldn't ditch a Pan top end either.
Just saying that a few years ago, when a stripped-down, hotrodded Harley was one of the fastest things on the road, that extra ten percent performance seemed important.

jq49pan
07-02-2009, 10:54 AM
Yeah but now its all about "preserving"

jq49pan
07-02-2009, 10:55 AM
I hate the term "pan/shovel" also

Destralo Roach
07-02-2009, 01:37 PM
hey roach do you know the actual horsepower gains through the years from FL knuckles pans and shovels ...were they significant...I'm not sure they were huge...


I'm not shure on the knuckle, but the panhead made from 50hp in 49 to 60hp in 65, then in 66 with the shovelhead, it made 66hp! And prety mutch stayd that way.............Roach.

GRUMPYDGMC
07-02-2009, 03:40 PM
yeah that pan/shovel term is total bullshit.....go back and check the numbers on the cases...that will determine exactly what the motor is and was....if its pre-66 then it doesn't matter what the hell is on top its still a panhead and should have a title reflecting that....a brother of mine had a 77 shovel top end on a 47 knuckle bottom and it came titled as a knuckehead....period.....end of story....

Dragstews
07-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Damn...Boys..i don't know if I want to jump in on this one or not..

Could get dipped in Shit and covered with Feather's...!!!

Anyway, back in the days of Hot-Roding Old Chevys. The 300hp heads was fun..But slap on a set of 375 heads and Look-Out.
Kinda the way I think about the Shovel's on a Pan

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk140/dragstews/52Pan049.jpg

hatch
07-02-2009, 04:00 PM
pan/shovel is a panhead bottom end (48-65) with an upgrade to shovel heads....done lone ago (ol skool for the youngins)for more performance. 66-69 is a generator shovel. Trust me...I'm never rong...:)

lackluster
07-02-2009, 04:09 PM
I agree with Hatch, and eye'm neaver rong eether.

Destralo Roach
07-02-2009, 04:09 PM
Trust me...I'm never rong...:)[/quote]



But never wright?????? ;)

................Roach.

BigDawg
07-02-2009, 04:12 PM
pan/shovel is a panhead bottom end (48-65) with an upgrade to shovel heads....done lone ago (ol skool for the youngins)for more performance. 66-69 is a generator shovel. Trust me...I'm never rong...:)

...and that would be perfectly fine if people would just leave it at that, but too often I see generator shovels (66-69) called "pan/shovels."

By the way, you spelled wrong, wrong. :p

Dragstews
07-02-2009, 04:13 PM
ya'll must of had the same spelling teacher.....Yipi-Ki-Yi-Yaaaaa


Forgive me lord...For I have Sined
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk140/dragstews/54Build016.jpg

jscoma47
07-02-2009, 04:22 PM
It started way back in 1936 with the KNUCKLEHEAD!!! then H-D PUT Panheads ON THE KNUCKLE lowerend!!!!!! So there!!!!!

66-69 are Generater shovels, 48-65 OHV with pan heads, 36-47 OHV with overhead valves "called knuckleheads" The factory didnt call the OHV anything intill 66 when they started calling them "shovelheads"..........Roach.

End of story

Dragstews
07-02-2009, 06:40 PM
Well....I guess I should have kept the Pans on it instead of using them for trout line sinkers...By the way I had the same teacher.

Osprey
07-02-2009, 06:59 PM
my buddy has a knuck/shovel, 41FL bottom, shovel on top.

hatch
07-02-2009, 08:41 PM
pan/shovel is a decsriptive term using the english language.....it helps describe a home modified HD motor.....not a factory built piece.


Kinda like dipshit, poser, rockabilly, sidewalk commando.....mental picture forming now.

Destralo Roach
07-02-2009, 08:51 PM
pan/shovel is a decsriptive term using the english language.....it helps describe a home modified HD motor.....not a factory built piece.


Kinda like dipshit, poser, rockabilly, sidewalk commando.....mental picture forming now.



Ha!! That last parts a good one!!!

..................Roach.

badassbrutus
07-02-2009, 09:11 PM
Could be a Shovel /Pan.....Im just sayin...lol

foureasy
07-02-2009, 10:37 PM
Who cares... Why would someone put shovel heads on a pan anyway? Pans Rule!
fuckin' a right

Destralo Roach
07-02-2009, 10:40 PM
Could be a Shovel /Pan.....Im just sayin...lol



One of my buddys puttin a shov/pan together right now, was mine and I gave it to him since old bikers shouldnt have just a V65 magna in the shed!!!!

........................Roach.

Dragstews
07-02-2009, 10:44 PM
Pan-Shovel...would be a Pan Lower and a Shovel top...

Shovel-Pan thats a Cone lower and a Pan Top..???

Like a Shovel-Kunck
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk140/dragstews/412863922_be06cdfa14_b.jpg

Larry T
07-02-2009, 10:47 PM
Who cares... Why would someone put shovel heads on a pan anyway? Pans Rule!

In the 60's/70's they were kinda like yesterdays newspaper (or EVOs now). If you wanted a "hotrod" Harley or new style scooter, you went with a Shovel. If you wanted a "classic" you got a Knuck.

BigDawg
07-02-2009, 10:58 PM
Pan-Shovel...would be a Pan Lower and a Shovel top...

Shovel-Pan thats a Cone lower and a Pan Top..???

Either that or a Panvolution...I'm sure there are several other silly monikers that we could come up with.

badassbrutus
07-03-2009, 06:48 AM
One of my buddys puttin a shov/pan together right now, was mine and I gave it to him since old bikers shouldnt have just a V65 magna in the shed!!!!

........................Roach.


If your givin em away can I have one Please??:D

chopperkid13
07-03-2009, 09:47 AM
+2, I wouldn't ditch a Pan top end either.
Just saying that a few years ago, when a stripped-down, hotrodded Harley was one of the fastest things on the road, that extra ten percent performance seemed important.

I understand there was a reason (power) but panheads are just sooo damn good looking. I guess it all comes down to why people ride their bikes. Some ride for speed, some ride for looks. zthe panhead it just the perfect looking engine, from the rocker boxes to the crank cases. Im glad others see it the way I do. One day soon I will own one and it will be a cold day in hell the day I swap to a shovel top end! Pans forever!

P.S. I have nothing against shovels..I just have a one true love

Larry T
07-03-2009, 10:47 AM
STD heads, flow like a shovel, look like a pan------------kinda.

Flathead4Ever
07-03-2009, 11:05 AM
Newbie question if ya don't mind... Does the shovel top end on a panhead bottom conversion involve any irreversible machine work or is it just different parts? Same question for shovel top end on a knuck bottom end?

I occasionally see these for sale, and am curious how hard it would be to reverse, assuming somebody wanted to...

hatch
07-03-2009, 11:19 AM
The one I want back........

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f20/vonhatch/bikes/shv.jpg

56 pan/shovel.....straight leg frame, 84" motor, (56 cases)....and cases and cases of beer.

Dragstews
07-03-2009, 01:02 PM
Wow....You musta had a damn good reason for letting that go...

!!!..That is Old School SWEET..!!!

Right down to the Satellite Gas Cap.

Destralo Roach
07-03-2009, 01:48 PM
Newbie question if ya don't mind... Does the shovel top end on a panhead bottom conversion involve any irreversible machine work or is it just different parts? Same question for shovel top end on a knuck bottom end?

I occasionally see these for sale, and am curious how hard it would be to reverse, assuming somebody wanted to...


Everything just bolts on.....Roach.

Larry T
07-03-2009, 01:53 PM
Ya gotta change cam covers or drill the original for top end oiling, but that's about the hardest part.
Wouldn't be hard to change back, or go to STD heads with outside oilers.

Destralo Roach
07-03-2009, 01:58 PM
Ya gotta change cam covers or drill the original for top end oiling, but that's about the hardest part.
Wouldn't be hard to change back, or go to STD heads with outside oilers.


No the cam cover stays, you drill it ala knuckle oiler for the shovel oiler, thats it.

Destralo Roach
07-03-2009, 02:07 PM
Ok, now that I,m not on the phone and trying to typ at the same time!!!

Take the heads and barrels of the panhead off including the pushrods and tubes, plus the pistions,

then the shovel pistions go on as with the shov barrels, then the heads and shov pushrods and tubes.

Of course modifi the cam cover befor you assembel the topend so you dont have alluminum in the oil, put camcover back on and top end and time and tune and your done, in the wind with 66 Horseys!!!
Same cam/lifters H grind........................Roach.

waiteitei
07-03-2009, 05:07 PM
rather than butcher the cam cover you could make a fitting to run outside oil lines to the heads where the oil pressure sender unit screws into the oil pump and if the fitting is designed properly still run an oil pressure sending unit

it worked on my bike running external oil lines to modified panheads

Destralo Roach
07-03-2009, 05:35 PM
Yep, there is that way as well, try typing and working on a bike and talking on the phone at the same time and some info dosnt make it, but that why we have the board so every one can add on.....Roach.

allcoamex
07-04-2009, 02:15 AM
Roach,just to make sure. I have a set a 69 cases and 63 heads, so they will bolt together without modification? I already have a 78 shovel so I want to change a little. this Question is more for curiosity, I have seen some knuckle heads converted for panhead cylinders. By useing this heads and 69 cases will the cases need to be modified for knuckle tappet guide or little to no modification ? thanks Fred

Destralo Roach
07-04-2009, 03:02 AM
If you use the pan barells with the 63 outside oilers, you use the shovel tappet blocks with pan pushrods, the out side oil line can go from the shovel case port to the heads, you dont use knuckle tappet blocks for this app....................All bolt on with no mods.

In order to use knuckle heads on any post 48 cases, you have to madify the case to drill for the oil return vacume port via the knuckle tapets, there are other ways, but thats if your going to put a knuckle top end on a 48-84 lower.......Roach.

dalebfast
07-04-2009, 03:28 AM
Doesn't anybody remember names such as Panvel or Shovester, or....???
Somebody a few weeks ago tried to corner me by asking what heads were on my '72 xlch. I told him 'ironheads'. I think he was looking for me to say shovelheads... jeez.

Dirty Dee

Dragstews
07-04-2009, 06:54 AM
Doesn't anybody remember names such as Panvel or Shovester, or....???
Somebody a few weeks ago tried to corner me by asking what heads were on my '72 xlch. I told him 'ironheads'. I think he was looking for me to say shovelheads... jeez.

Dirty Dee

Ron Trock would..!!!

BigDawg
07-04-2009, 08:28 AM
...and John Harman.

Larry T
07-04-2009, 09:49 AM
Here's how I did the outside oilers on my Pan. I drilled the stock cam cover since I didn't have an extra stock "late model" knuck cover laying around.

Man, I need to clean this thing up and start riding it some. Been a couple of months since I've even cranked it. Seems like I've been REAL distracted with getting other folks going and trying to keep from starving. (G)
Larry T

"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember the primary objective is to drain the swamp."

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7403/panheadtopendoil2.jpg (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/panheadtopendoil2.jpg/)

Dragstews
07-04-2009, 10:17 AM
I did the same thing as Larry T did. Drilled the cam cover. If I was ever to go back to the inside oiler type clys, could always use a 1/8 npt allen plug in the cover....Kinda did a little nutty thing on the Shovel Rockers by welding up the feel hole in the rear rocker and also the crossover line holes and drilled under the intake rocker arms in order to run a Knuck type oil line.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk140/dragstews/45build026.jpg

Destralo Roach
07-04-2009, 01:45 PM
Sportster Mike Lagro, out of boston had a shovster in Easyriders back in the early 80's, looked like a Ness bike....................Roach.

dragonclaws
04-25-2012, 02:24 AM
Better breathing = more horsepower and torque.
Before Pans were quaint and "vintage", they were just old, and this was a very common performance mod.
I got a ride on the back of a 66 "Shovel- Pan" chopper.
It was faster than any other I ever seen.
Did not hurt the owner could do 360s an inch from the asphalt. Back when fish tails were brand new...
Anywz..
I was told it was for the year only. It had a belt drive. Now I am reading differnt years and either learning more or less. Either way I dig it!

. But this chopper had everything as soon as it was created. great bike nice blue color giant gas tank, hope his sticker on it still looks mint!

gasketscraper
04-25-2012, 11:22 PM
As Roach and others pointed out, Stock Pan Vs Shovel, shovel has a 10% advantage. But start breathing hard on the shovel and it hands down leaves the Pan WAAAAAAAAAY back. The Panhead design can only go so far with the hard bends in the intake Ports. Pans look cool as hell, in a vintage Tractor sorta way. Someday I'd love to own one. But shovels, to me anyways, look cooler yet...........more like a vintage airplane engine.Think radial Pratt and Whitney. But hey I wouldn't turn any of the vintage Iron down. Its all pure sex to me.

Neo Dutch
04-26-2012, 01:40 AM
I got a ride on the back of a 66 "Shovel- Pan" chopper.
It was faster than any other I ever seen.
Did not hurt the owner could do 360s an inch from the asphalt. Back when fish tails were brand new...
Anywz..
I was told it was for the year only. It had a belt drive. Now I am reading differnt years and either learning more or less. Either way I dig it!

. But this chopper had everything as soon as it was created. great bike nice blue color giant gas tank, hope his sticker on it still looks mint!

Wow, thanks for joining just to drag up this three year old thread.

dragonclaws
05-02-2012, 04:24 PM
yea, Ill have to make a thread

HD48FL
05-02-2012, 04:30 PM
Wow, thanks for joining just to drag up this three year old thread.

yea, Ill have to make a thread

I don't think that's what he meant?