TECH: Triumph Hardtail Alignment

[scootermcrad]

Okay, I said I would post it so here goes. Don't reply or comment until I'm done. Thanx!

The topic:
Get your Triumph Hardtail Aligned correctly

What you need:
-A motorcycle and hardtail:rolleyes:
-Long, accurage straight edge
-a buble level with a straight edge
-string
-couple of heavy weights (concrete blocks will work)
-general handtools
-drill
-hand file
-couple c-clamps
-LOTS OF PATIENCE!!

The ultimate idea here is to get your chains running true and your bike going straight down the road. In this case a late model (duplex frame) Pre-unit Triumph frame and drive train were the lab rats. An MAP cycle hardtail was used and was perfect for this article because it had a lot of problems right out of the box. Thankfully it was welded square, but the holes were simply jigged and drilled wrong somewhere along the way. The result was a hardtail that was throwing the wheel to the left causing mis-alignment in the rear drive chain. Here's what was going on and what SHOULD have been going on.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/hardtailalignment.jpg
The drawing is not to scale, but gives the general idea of what the problem is.

Now, how to fix it. Overall the concept is pretty simple, but took some thinking of how to do it without really taring things apart.

First thing is first. You really need your motor (or motor and trans if pre-unit) to be in the frame and have a good drive chain and the wheel installed with all the correct components.

Next, get the bike in a solid position by any mean necesary. If you have a pre-unit, make sure your trans mainshaft and crankshaft are aligned parallel so the primary runs perfect (not covering that here). This will be important so the drive sprockets can be parallel.

Next, get the bike level and plumb. Use an engine component that you know needs to be perpendicular or parallel with the rear axle. In my case I used the crank shaft. I know ultimately it had to be aligned with the rear axle. Once the bike is plumb you can use this to get the alxe level and the hardtail plumb. After things are level and plumb, pick a spot on the motor or primary that you know will be in-line with the rear drive chain. This surface will be used to set up your string.

[scootermcrad]

Okay. Here's what things will look like.

Set up your string with the straight edge:
My "in-line" spot
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01992.jpg
Here's the straight edge:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01988.jpg

Run the string to a point that won't move and won't get in your way. Make sure that the string stays parallel with the straight edge!! Everything will be based off the string. Check your measurements along the string until you're confident it's parallel. Use a good/accurate ruler to do this. A carpenters square with ruler will be helpful here to run down the straight edge to check measurements.

[scootermcrad]

Here's more pics of how the string runs along the bike. I'll explain the big-ass gears on either side of the wheel in a minute.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01985.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01971.jpg

[scootermcrad]

Okay, now that you're string should be set-up. Go back and RE-CHECK!!! This needs to be right!

Now that you know it's right we can continue!

From here you can find out just how far off your alignment is. In my case I was off by quite a bit. The wheel seemed to be to the left (drive side) about 5/16 to 1/2 an inch. That's a lot and it was made very apparent by the "jumping" and binding of the chain as the wheel was turned.

To find out where things need correcting, I pulled the bolts out of the right lower mounting point and slid the top bolt out enough to drop the right side out of position. This allowed the hardtail to pivot/hinge about the left side bolts. The two large gears in the picture above were used to hold the position of the wheel (left to right) to make it "theoretically" aligned. A magnetic level was used to help keep the hardtail plumb
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01973.jpg

Now to figure out HOW MUCH it's off to the fraction of an inch. Prepare for patience, measuring, tool throwing, a brief exorcism using lots of foul language and just a hell of a lot of adjusting!!!

Use the rear sprocket/drum as your comparison plane. This sprocket needs to be in-line and perfectly parellel with the planer face of the drive sprocket on the transmission mainshaft. Knowing that the string SHOULD be parallel with the trans drive sprocket measure from the string to the sprocket face. The sprocket teeth should be the same thickness. If they're not, take note of the difference. You will need to account for this difference when measuring the rear. Use a good/accurate ruler. Use the same side of the string each time you measure.

Now, move the rear sprocket/drum (keeping it level/plumb) until the measurement is the same on the rear as it is on the drive sprocket.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01972.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01991.jpg
NOTE: You will need to measure the front and back of the rear sprocket (before and aft the axle/drum)!! Use the wheel adjusters until the wheel is square and the measurements come out the same.

[scootermcrad]

Now check out your holes in the hardtail in relation to the holes in the frame. Here's how mine were off.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01975.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01974.jpg

Now you should have a good idea of how much you need to alter and "repair" the holes to get things lined up.

[scootermcrad]

Now the fun begins!! Remember what I said about exorcisms, throwing tools and a lot of patience???!!! UGGG!!!

Alter your holes in the hardtail until you can get the bolts back in and the tail end is still aligned correctly with your string. Check as you go! This will be the time consuming part, but it is crucial to take your time and do it right. I didn't have a reamer small enough to get in the holes so I used and aggresive hand/rat tail file to get in the holes.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01996.jpg
THIS SUCKED! Be careful not to screw up the threads/holes in your frame! You don't want to re-thread anything!

With all the filing, rechecking, filing, rechecking, filing rechecking I finally got things lined up. You have to tighten the bolts up all the way each time because you're checking how it will be when it's tightened up and finished. I found it easiest to just use a c-clamp for the top instead of tightening it each time. One less bolt to worry about.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01987.jpg

[scootermcrad]

After you've got the holes slotted and you KNOW your numbers are right and all is aligned... the worst is over! Now you need something to take up the gap you just moved so the hardtail won't move BACK! You can do this by making a shim or spacer, but welding in the holes would be best if you have the means to do so.
Here's the lower holes slotted before filling (sorry so dark):
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01997.jpg
Here's after:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/scootermcrad/Hardtail%20alignment/DSC01998.jpg

[scootermcrad]

The same was done on the top.

From here, you should be able to bolt things up for a finished product. You still should do one last check of your measurements before you start putting everything back together.

Once you've done the final check, put the chain on and see how things turn out.

I know this isn't EXACTLY your bike, but it's one way of doing an alignment. This worked for me, but use your own discression when giving this a go. You may need to do something different. Things are certainly going to be different if you have a Unit construction bike. But, the same theory applies.

Hopefully this helps someone get down the road a little safer! Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any questions or if you need more details feel free to comment and I'll post them. Hopefully it's clear what I was doing.

CHEERS!!
Scooter

[caffeine]

great post! i wanna know about that big ass bearing,

what the hell kinda stroker triumph motor are you building with those two cam gear and that big ass mainbearing!?

[Flyin' Dutchman]

Scott!! You crazy motherfucker!! Did you check my goodies already....?? ;)

[scootermcrad]

HAAAA!!! The timing gears and bearing are for my TT10000000650R6 with 20-speed gear box!! :D You should see the PISTONS!!! :D

Actually the gears are from a Waukasha (sp?) 6-cylinder motor the size of a VW Beetle. Those gears must weigh in at about 40 lb a piece! Crazy! One is a cam gear and the other is an accessory gear. I also have a couple crank gears and the idler gears!! The bearing is from the impeller of a HUGE water pump. The pump is about the size of a VW also! It was hooked up to a 5000 HP electric motor! Two of those bearings were used for the impeller and that was one of them. Serious business.
great post! i wanna know about that big ass bearing,

what the hell kinda stroker triumph motor are you building with those two cam gear and that big ass mainbearing!?

[scootermcrad]

Hey Brotha'!! I didn't get to your package yet. It was a crazy weekend! Had a few people interested in the Model A this weekend. kept me pretty busy. I'll get on your stuff tonight man! Things have been nuts!! Don't mean to keep you waiting. :o PM me when you get a chance!

Scott!! You crazy motherfucker!! Did you check my goodies already....?? ;)

[scootermcrad]

Man, I suck at spelling! Sorry everyone! Please disregard the spelling and gramatical errors! If Ryan gets us a spell check like he did on the HAMB I just might be able to write things that make sense... I didn't do so well in grammer school, so when they came out with spell check it saved my life! :D Don't need no steenking dictionary!

[Kyle]

Sorry its not related to the tech, but where did you get your oil filter set up?

[scootermcrad]

Local speed shop had that nice spin-on filter arrangement. The filter is a small Ford type filter. Smallest one they had at the shop. Works great so far!Sorry its not related to the tech, but where did you get your oil filter set up?

[hightest]

great post!

[caffeine]

bttt

[scootermcrad]

BUMP for a new day in Tech Week

[scootermcrad]

BTTT for tech week

[cheapbob]

another superb tech tip, I'm gonna be diggin thru these for weeks!

[BuzzKilr]

Thanks. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this thread.

Rob

[cheapbob]

there is all kinds of neat tech tips in the archive, did a few searches and pow! losta threads.... check it out!

[scootermcrad]

Thanks. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this thread.

Rob
Cool man! Hope it helped! There are lots of ways to do this, but thought I would show you what I did. I guess the biggest thing is picking the right reference points to get things true and square. Lots of measuring and just being patient. Hopefully even some of the ideas will help someone.

Let me know if it helped. Curious if this process worked for anyone else.

Cheers!
Scooter

[45Brit]

watch out for offset wheels... some people build offset wheels to get a fat 16" tyre onto a British bike which hasn't got room for it. If you have one of these, you will have a pemanent problem which the above procedure can't deal with.

[scootermcrad]

watch out for offset wheels... some people build offset wheels to get a fat 16" tyre onto a British bike which hasn't got room for it. If you have one of these, you will have a pemanent problem which the above procedure can't deal with.
Yep! This is true! You would have to handle things differently in that case.

Good point to bring up!

[rookiebiatch]

Is there any benefit of a bolt on hard-tail versus a weld on? It seems that all of that allignment would be made easier with a weld on. It also seems a bit dodgy to just bolt a hard-tail on I've seen a grip of fasteners break and I would hate to be going 80 when that goes down. I apologize if this is a completely stupid question but I AM a rookie biatch.

[Lurkingclass]

One of the major benefits to a hardtail is the ability to change the design of the bike without major surgery. For example, poeple that buy a 6" over hardtail, then decide they like the 4" or if you get old and need suspension or whatever. If you buy a hardtail from someone reputable, you may be able to avoid some of the alignment issues- I checked my bolt-on hardtail jobs, and never had any major misalignment. I wouldn't worry about the hardware, as long as it's high quality- and use locknuts!. Triumphs have had bolt- on rear sections as far back as I know, I've never heard of a stock 40's or 50's bike that broke in half from hardware failure. I think just about any pre- oil in frame Triumph has a front loop bolted to a rear section: be it rigid or swingarm. As far as looks, I think a welded on bolt-on hardtail looks worst than just bolt-on, but that's just my opinion. I hope this helps.

[rookiebiatch]

Thanks.

[scootermcrad]

Is there any benefit of a bolt on hard-tail versus a weld on? It seems that all of that allignment would be made easier with a weld on. It also seems a bit dodgy to just bolt a hard-tail on I've seen a grip of fasteners break and I would hate to be going 80 when that goes down. I apologize if this is a completely stupid question but I AM a rookie biatch.
With the correct bolts torqued appropriately there shouldn't be a problem. If the hardtail is never going to be changed weld it in place or buy a weld-on tail.

The best tip that could come out of this thread is BUY A GOOD QUALITY HARD TAIL!! The one I bought from MAP SUCKED!!! The welds looked nice, but it was completely tweeked... thus leading to the birth of this thread. I hear Wes (Four Aces Cycle), Choppahead, and a couple other people (another of which is a JJ'r) has a good product.

Cheers!